Splendid Isolation, Jessica Lang’s tribute to the marriage between Gustav & Alma Mahler

Looking forward to seeing the video at home. 🙂

May I ask you, as a “therapist” and “people” person Kurt Smith whether you think/believe that, with regard to a creative endeavor (such as being a composer) there really is any such thing as balance? I ask because there are so few women, comparatively, who are, for instance, famous painters, composers, etc. There are perhaps more writers, possibly because of the perception that it can be done by candlelight after everyone else has gone to bed.

But, it is difficult to be a painter in that way. Or, I would venture, a composer or choreographer. So many women seem to do it alone because it is so difficult to “balance” one’s deeply calling creative voices against those of children. 

I wonder if, as in Gustav’s case, one actually has to confront, to see, to encounter, the resulting depression of having asked someone to give something up in order to realize, “OK, this person must do this thing and we will create the balance, which is rather like constructing a complex work of architecture, when it comes to a marriage at least: building round the tree, the rocks, up and down the hill….

But ted kelly what if you don’t feel the “pull” toward that which you are giving up? What if it doesn’t fall into the category of importance that Alma Mahler’s music had for her? I mean I am assuming of course that one doesn’t fall into a depression if the thing that one is leaving behind doesn’t matter. But I venture to say that, with regard to creativity, there is no such thing as trading up. For me, speaking very personally, leaving a “job,” is not the same thing as being asked not to compose, not to write, not to paint, not to…be…creative. I think this is impossible…thus the choreography of the “dilemma” in a dance. The twisting and turning. I don’t think you can “clutch” a creative gift. It is not meant to be let go of, any more than a bird is meant to walk instead of fly.

Susanne Ramharter _”The difference of course being, that it is both easier and socially more acceptable for men to have fairly distant relationships with their families and friends, while the expectation for women is much more demanding,’_ this would be the underlying assumption in Gustav asking Alma to be the one to give up something that mattered. The assumption is that she will devote herself to the children, while he composes.

No matter how many studies come out bearing witness to the evolutionary biology of men being as geared toward child-raising as women, the cultural indoctrination of women being the childcare experts while a man’s work, whether it be business or creative art, must necessarily be all-encompassing, full-time and uninterruptible.

Were we able to see, however, the contribution to culture, to art, to artistic evolution and intelligence, of the Georgia O’Keeffes (she too had to leave her photographer husband behind in New York, while she went to New Mexico to have her own space as a painter) and the Mary Cassatts (who felt marriage and a woman’s art career could not co-exist), then, perhaps, instead of asking that a woman “give up,” we would say, Please be fully who you are in my company…and I will bring you nourishment while you do so!

D e e p. Giselle Minoli

Chris Collins-Wooley I will look forward to your thoughts…

If we talk about balance, what about balancing responsibilities with… enjoyment? There are things we must do in order to secure shelter and food, for instance. And there are things we want to do, which provide their own kind of sustenance…. to the soul (for lack of a better expression).  Life would be meaningless if we couldn’t dedicate ourselves to those things we enjoy, and unfortunately it is only in an utopia where we can get rid of responsibilities.

Sometimes, some things are both enjoyment and a responsibility, and that’s an ideal we often struggle towards in our lives (e.g.: “find a job you love”).

How can one ever defend love in the face of denying a partner their nourishment for the soul? Sometimes love is nourishment enough, but this is a sacrifice that must be decided by the person who’s giving things up, not imposed by the other.

A partnership of equals (what every relationship should be) would place the same emphasis on the needs of each member to experience their own enjoyment. Yet, it seems our society expects nothing but sacrifice from ourselves: give up your personal passions for the sake of others.

If the responsibilities that a family brings seem impossible to balance with our own personal quest for enjoyment, then the solution is quite simple: a family is not meant for you (at least, not at this time). Anyway, I think we have enough people as it is on this planet as to really concern ourselves with the social pressure that we all need to get married and have children.

Giselle Minoli, I’d say that in modern times (or at least, close future times) parenting is a 50/50 split amongst the parents. If your partner is unable to do their 50% without sacrificing their creative side, then it must be their choice, if they want to have children and sacrifice somehow their passion, or not have children so they can devote themselves to it.

And why must the choice be theirs and not ours? Because the problem is in their side of the equation, not ours. Anyway, these kind of discussions should be done far in advance of marriage, because we just can’t marry a person whose life goals (and needs) significantly differ from ours…

I think significant pauses in creative energy can be quite difficult to overcome Kena Herod. I don’t think it’s a matter of contentment but rather of having lost something and having difficulty finding it again. 30 was not young then…which is also significant….

This is such an interesting post and discussion Giselle Minoli. Thank you. And everyone for the thoughtful comments. It’s a heartbreaking truth that countless women over the ages have sacrificed their work in the ways you describe.

I have my own story as everyone does.. My mother was a dancer, my father a composer. From what I know, my mother’s greatest professional challenge came from within the dance community itself when she became pregnant with my older brother. Her decision was not approved by her mentor, Martha Graham, and eventually, after my arrival but I don’t think, because of it, moved on into collaborating with my father on making a school for creative arts for children. Long story.

I danced but ultimately became a painter and married a painter. We were each also “married” to our careers and did not have children. I am sure that if we had, it would have been close to a 50/50 arrangement. We are no longer pursuing art making professionally. (thank goodness! What a stressful life) But our relationship has always been structured around being each others’ champions even though naturally, there were bumps occasionally. I believe I can thank the times and culture we came up in and also probably my mother who was steadfast in her own pursuits in the face of some challenges.

Hello Gina Fiedel I think over a bottle of good wine we could all sit and discuss this quite civilly. Thank you for sharing that story. Your mother’s story is my first dance teacher’s, Elizabeth Waters’, story. I started dancing with her when I was six years old.  Here is her obituary from the New York Times. It’s telling. She never married and never had children: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/06/obituaries/elizabeth-h-waters-choreographer-83.html.

I was surrounded growing up by all of these stunningly talented single women, some widowed with children, some divorced, some never married. I would ask my mother, “Mom, why isn’t Florence married?” And she would say, “She’s an artist. How could she be?” But all the men artists we knew were married.

It would be fairly impossible for me to claim that I never had children without those early influences. The very clear message in the artistic world we inhabited was that children would pull a woman away from her artistic calling. Several years ago my middle stepdaughter texted me when my husband was taking me to Dulles. She asked me if I ever regretted not having children. And I answered quite honestly that, No, I never regretted it. As Walther M.M. so sensitively, wisely, and non-judgementally suggests above, marriage and children are not for everyone. I was one of those.

But the real truth is that I wanted what you found with your husband. A partner with whom to explore the creative world. Three men – Will you marry me and let’s have children? No…to the children part…and the relationship was over in the snap of my fingers.

Speaking to the last paragraphs of your words…about not being art professionals any longer…I’m not so sure it matters. Perhaps the purpose of any individual’s and any couple’s life is that it is fully explored. If you decided This Thing is Now Done…I think that’s what we are supposed to be doing.

After all, we are creating our individuals lives, aren’t we? Or, rather, aren’t we supposed to be?

I wonder, Gina (my mother’s name was Gina), if your Mom read A Room of One’s Own. You benefitted from your mother’s life story. There is tremendous beauty in that I think.

Gina Fiedel I am reading this with eyes half closed after a long 10 hour drive. Thank you.  I will respond properly tomorrow. A serious injury in a Hanya Holm workshop in Colorado Springs ended my modern dancing days. And so it goes…

One relevant piece of information, which hasn’t been mentioned until now, are those studies on happiness which demonstrate how it is unshakable by real world events. Win the lottery? Be joyous! …for a few months, and then you are back to your usual self. Survived a horrible accident? Be miserable…. for a few months, before you are back to your usual self.

If we have such a great capacity to adapt to a changing environment, then it is entirely possible that we can be happy, no matter what direction life takes us. This is pure conjecture, but it would appear to me that the harm in not being able to follow our passions lies in our clinging to that desire. A versatile mind would know to have an open heart that’s capable of finding means of expressing love, regardless of the medium (and I reckon that artistic creativity can be expressed in innumerable ways, too).

Sure, this is not a valid excuse to force people to fit into the boxes as imposed by society, but it gives a certain comfort when things just don’t want to go the way we want them to. And it may explain some of the previous stories of people who made sacrifices, but didn’t feel like “going back” once they had the opportunity.

Walther M.M. you’ve bought up a very essential and complex issue, namely the one described by terms such as  ‘choice’, ‘clinging’,  ‘mindfulness’ and ‘resilience’ as Gina Fiedel writes – with whose comment I completely agree.

First off, the choice to pursue creative talent should be freely made by the one with the talent, not forced on one by a partner or society.  Then again, sometimes it’s circumstances that force the change, a singer who loses a voice and may take up composing or conducting.  But many people whose talents and needs to create or even just be themselves are squashed wind up leading the proverbial “lives of quiet” desperation, or land at the other end of the slightly hysterical. 

And I am very glad that when Beethoven became deaf he continued to compose some of his greatest pieces. 😉

In conclusion, I believe that both the ‘not turning back’ and the ‘not clinging’ are related to the degree to which a person identifies with that one aspect of their personality.   For (too) many years I did the corporate career thing, but in truth, was not really satisfied, bouncing from one adult education topic to the next, just to satisfy those parts of myself that were dying in the ‘normal’ world of work.  About two years ago, the career suddenly went downhill; “Tragedy”, “Crisis”!  Now I could not be happier, because I no longer have to suppress my interests or knowledge, and can live and experience aspects of myself that have been dormant for years.  The transition was neither instantaneous nor easy, but I’m glad it happened, because the tough career manager wasn’t really me.

But Beethoven was about music, he could not have stopped, and he didn’t.  

To the last few posters, sorry if my post restates your thoughts. I have to paste this in from last night and run.

These are hard, ancient issues for anyone pursuing a profession and a relationship, but certainly they are harder for artists, women, minorities, and of course, hardest for minority women artists. I’m a white man with a striving coefficient just to the lazy side of moderate, and still I struggled with them. So, you are asking, what can I possibly add to this conversation among people who have had to strive harder? First, I can acknowledge Western society, my society, is unfair. We as a society hinder your right to pursue your passion in general, and we construct a forced trade-off between relationships and professions. The hindrance is quantifiable in the disparity between the wages we pay for equal work. For what little it’s worth, I am sincerely sorry for it.  

Next, I will indulge that stereotypically male need to analyze a problem into its component variables and come up with a clinical equation for its solution and upload it to the internet! Unfortunately, I lack the talent to express the relationship-profession trade-off as something that will fit on a grumpy cat meme, so here comes a wall of words (and there goes my audience). The short answer is, chance trumps all. You’ve already covered the variables in the comments. Undaunted, I will proceed to put too fine a point on each of them. I can’t help myself.  

Personality Some people are just plain born to be devoted to their profession and if it weren’t for meddling family and friends and cultural mores, would live their lives without regrets thank you very much. Personality is a neutral variable. “No Blame” reads the toss of the i ching coins. I think I’m the opposite. I attempted to pursue a profession as an artist even though my personality was really not cut out for it. It’s been my experience that most people fall somewhere in between.  

Talent It turns out that my second strongest talent is this spatial recognition thingy that got me a job breaking codes during the Vietnam war, but has since been of little practical value except to pack a friend’s two-bedroom apartment into an eight-foot trailer and watch her drive away out of my life forever. The more talent you have, the greater its weight in the equation.  

Passion Let’s use passion as shorthand for one’s interest in a professional pursuit and also for one’s interest in a relationship. The simple form of the equation is to put these on opposite sides see which has the most weight. In real life, that’s a gross oversimplification. I have had a strong passion for photography that goes back to my earliest memories of watching my mother take pictures with a brownie camera. She was a passionate, natural artist and even has a painting in a Purdue University primitive art collection. She had six kids and couldn’t afford a darkroom but she developed her own film to save a few bucks. I have a modest talent in photography, enough to squander more than a decade pursuing my passion trying to make a decent living at it. On the other hand, I can’t say I regret not making a career at packing moving trucks. I have no passion for it because there is no reward in it.  

Reward The Reward variable is what drew my attention to this post and comments. Fame is a reward. Wealth is a measurable reward. I have come to put no value in fame and fortune as a measure of talent (says the guy who didn’t make it as an artist). In her daily artist survey, Susanne Ramharter  gives us a regular dose of the fickle nature of fame and fortune. Too often we measure wealth in dollars instead of satisfaction. Pursue your passion for its own sake, I say. 

Time Which would be all well and good but for the mortal coil, the biological clock, our standing on the shoulders of countless generations of artists that have toiled before us to build out our schools of art and thought but looking desperately for a chair.  

Sacrifice If the word sacrifice surfaces when choosing between a relationship and a professional move, it probably is. The only advice I can give is to be sure you’ve fully thought through the nature of the sacrifice because it cuts both ways. ted kelly  recognizes this in his comment above. Choose wrong one way and you could’a been a contender, or choose wrong the other way and you could spend the rest of your days getting all maudlin whenever you hear Janis Joplin sing Bobby McGee. 

Balance Balance is the operator in this equation. Somehow, we weigh the variables and come up with a balance. It would be disingenuous for me to speak on my wife’s behalf, but I like to think that the trade-offs we’ve made in both of our careers has left us as greater than the sum of our parts. 

Chance What does this complex equation look like? I have no idea. Forget all of the above. My life has taken more random turns than I can start to list, and most likely so will yours. Chance lays wreck to the best laid plans. Statistically, I had a better chance of looking for my next meal in a dumpster behind MacDonald’s instead of sitting at my desk waxing poetic on a Friday night. The only element in common with all the scenarios I entertained as a young man is that I came out the other side happy. 

Happiness obviously, is the constant you want to increase on the result side of the equation. As a professional photographer I was a terrible husband and father, and a complete jerk to my friends. My dog didn’t like me. I didn’t like me. Once I stopped trying to equate my photographic talent with commercial success I got my groove back. In fact, I surpassed it. Now I get great joy in producing the occasional image, even though I have an audience of exactly one. My daughter, an avid lepidopterist, and I chase butterflies like paparazzi. Because, as it turned out, my life’s passion, and by far my most rewarding talent, turned out to be as a father. 

Bravo Chris Collins-Wooley and thank you for this splendid tour-de-force!!

I was about to apologize for another absence from my own post, but Chris Collins-Wooley’s Chance intervened, preventing me from so doing, so that he could write his comment, which I have dubbed PTPRTSBCH (any of you who wants to make up a name for that please be my guest), and I could digest it all in my own sweet Saturday time. I do not quibble with anything expressed here by any of you. I quibble with myself, because I think I have yet to express a question that lies underneath all of this, which is the difference between our choice and being chosen (rather like an animal in need of a home that shows up on our doorstep and simply decides to stay. Last night late, I was sitting outside watching the last dribs and drabs of light fall away and this albino possum creature walked across the patio at my feet. I said, “What an interesting coat you are wearing.” It looked at me and disappeared into the Hydrangeas. Seconds later I heard this very loud lapping of water. The drain from the roof is right under the hydrangeas and he was having himself a nice long drink. He walked out, crossed the lawn and disappeared into the cornfield. I couldn’t help wondering if he does this every night. It is clearly his house when I am gone. But I digress…but maybe not).

Walter H Groth, my friend, I hear you. There is absolutely the possible/necessary application of Buddhist thought and mindfulness and presence and consciousness to this post. I left it out for a particular reason, which is that, even after a few years on the Planet I am not convinced that it can so easily be applied to the “being” of “being” an artist. Yes, one can be as conscious of one’s behavior/intention, etc. as an artist, as in any other endeavor, but I am not sure this addresses the being of an artist to begin with. Years ago I read an interview with the Dalai Lama (I cannot remember) where in which he discussed the rigor of chosen the Buddhist path – that the level of responsibility and constant awareness it requires is challenging indeed, thus a particular type of person is attracted to it. 

One could say the same, I suppose, about being an artist…that it is a difficult path, with no sure success to grab onto and quite tough to stick with unless circumstances seem to be just so.

That said, of the large group of people I know who are artists over a very long time (none of whom most people have heard of) there is a strong sense of Art Chose Me, not the other way around. This post is not a feminist cri. I know many women who have asked the men in their lives to give up something that matters to them.

Yet I still have my essential question, which is what is it exactly this business of asking someone to give something up? Chris Collins-Wooley and Walther M.M. I could easily go the other direction and say that, for instance, if one is of a particularly visionary spirit, the actual encouraging of someone not to give up something might indeed be a higher form of spiritual, selfless love. We live in a world wherein we often hear, “How long have you been at it? Five years? Time to give it up. You should have made it by now.” But those people clearly do not know their art and music and writerly history. Nor do they know the story of Vincent van Gogh’s life.

I often wonder Susanne Ramharter whether his “insanity” is what saved him. A more “normal” state of mind might have put him in the continual presence of someone who would have asked him to give it up to become, perhaps, a shoe cobbler. And then what would we have had culturally? Historically? He sold one painting in his lifetime.

As for your own story Susanne Ramharter I hear you in oh so many ways. Re: Beethoven…do you really think he could have stopped? I don’t. Thus my question today.

Chris Collins-Wooley how blissfully fortunate your lovely daughter!

What is it exactly this business of asking someone to give something up?

It is no different than when people impose their morals on others. Or when we demand others to behave ethically, Giselle Minoli. When we believe to know the solution to a problem, and others don’t agree with us, there is a subset of the population that think the way forward is to just bulldoze over the other opinions and use our solution anyway. When it comes specifically to romance/art, the belief that we know the solution is even more heavily reinforced because it is given by society. And from a logical point of view, it’s quite appealing; can anybody claim to be smarter than the human collective that came before and decided on these things for us?

It doesn’t take much thinking to realize the fallacy: Of course… once upon a time, killing, rape and slavery (not necessarily all at once) were well endorsed cultural norms.

In Buddhist philosophy it is said that morals are meant to be used as a compass to guide oneself in life, and not as tools of judgement to criticize others or aggrandize your ego. We can expand this line of thinking towards all areas that involve free will. For, if we love somebody, wouldn’t we also naturally respect and honour their free-will?

That’s how I rest my case regarding my understanding of the situation, how things stand, and where I believe they could be heading to improve.

ps: There are some special corner cases regarding respecting of free will such as self-destructive tendencies or defiance of the law, but I don’t want to extend even more this comment.

Gina Fiedel, who knows? Eugène Atget, gained immortality only after he was promoted by Berenice Abbot. Maybe someday a Berenice Abbot will find you. 

Chris Collins-Wooley I don’t know how to interpret your above comment. I hadn’t seen any disagreement in our various and ‘proprio’ opinions. Just different life experiences, so I’m not sure what argument you are speaking of. I’ve missed something clearly.

Well, good.  I didn’t either. I just know that when I start pontificating, I usually come off as arguing. 

Hi, sweet liberty. I think we all have in one way or another. Good morning and thank you for sharing this. Although it’s another discussion entirely, but one I’ve posted about….I think this is the decade of women’s issues….with the numbers of women in the workplace and the numbers of women in graduate school….it is going to start to shift, there will be less “sacrifice” and more “support.”

Apologies Giselle Minoli for missing your question. Not knowing too much about the creative fields you speak, other than common perceptions about an all or nothing focus to produce creative spurts, perhaps my answer will be a bit limited. But I would still argue that balance is necessary for life; at least healthy life that is. I don’t believe the ends justify the means; i.e. the incredible creative product yielded from an out of balance life. I would surmise that there are a lot of mental health issues and dysfunctional lives surrounding these ‘creative’ lifestyles that from my perspective outweigh the end product. It is though, ‘to each his own life.’

Hi Kurt Smith nice to see someone here that is unfamiliar with creative endeavors or “the creative lifestyle”. Giselle Minoli, hello again.

Kurt, there are universes of stereotype about creative people and that saddens me. Why segregate mental health issues and dysfunction to the arts? I might be a little bit crazy sometimes, but so can my accountant. Not all artists are eccentric or even disorderly.

In my mind, there really isn’t as much of a distinction as people might imagine between the arts and business when it comes to passion, drive and innovation. An individual that is creative may find themselves devoted in either world. It’s a matter of energy for ideas, exploration, experimentation, capitalizing on mistakes and failure, execution and follow-through.

Finding balance is a great goal. Each individual’s perfect balance is located at a different spot along the continuum or bell-curve. Who’s to say what works for whom? And perhaps some people thrive being what I might call, or you might call out of balance. It can be exhilarating to be out of balance for a particularly productive time and then back in balance at another time. We are always changing and fluid.

Giselle Minoli just a couple more little comments to your comment-

I definitely experience for myself too, that my creative efforts lend balance to my life and that I also do look for balance (most of the time). I do have a huge distaste for the never admitting to mistakes, wrong thinking, simple not-knowing. It can be maddening.

In my experience, doctors, lawyers, dentists; the best of them are very creative and there is an “art” to what they do even within the restrictions and fears you mention which are very real. Ahhh, I remember too the days of feeling like we were the ‘amusing pets’ of the collectors……

My father was crazy about his dentist when I was a kid because he was also a sculptor. I look for my sense of the individual as well.

Good morning, Kurt Smith. Of course there is a Yin and Yang, I completely agree. However…forgive me, but it’s easy to misinterpret these words “I would surmise that there are a lot of mental health issues and dysfunctional lives surrounding these ‘creative’ lifestyles that from my perspective outweigh the end product.” That reads like a judgement to me of people attempting to lead creative lifestyles, as opposed to those not doing so and it also entirely leaves out the considerable “dysfunction” in more traditional money-making professions, which is the reason it reads as being so judgmental.

At any rate, in this crazy world we all live in, I think the definition of “dysfunctional” is questionable.

The definition of functional should probably be revisited too. Hmmm?

I was thinking about this whole topic on artists being dysfunctional as I was watching this morning the film Séraphine.

To a certain degree, it is true that in order to create, the mind needs to be able to think outside the box, to escape norms and contemplate the unthinkable. Under a certain light, does this description not fit our definition of madness? That’s also the word that comes to mind when I think of the works of Salvador Dalí. Does it not take an extraordinary mind to create extraordinary art? And doesn’t anything that is misunderstood or foreign to our common-sense thinking not labelled as madness, too?

Yes, perhaps it does take a cup of madness in order to dare try the unthinkable, to imagine the unimaginable; but where the difference lies, between an actual artist that attains fame from his work and a fringe lunatic, is in their ability to not lose their connection to the society they live in.

Thus, as others mentioned recently, it’s the dysfunctional part of uniqueness that brings problems, not the “madness” of a creative mind. For what is madness for the layperson may just not be understood yet, sometimes even by the artist himself.

Society loves to label as dysfunctional anybody who will not conform to it, Giselle Minoli.  I’d place my bet that’s the main factor which determines who’s “a creative genius” and who’s just “nuts.” That we (collectively, as society) judge harshly those who won’t fit into our expectations is merely society protecting its own identity. That’s why some people may be afraid of expressing their creativity: the risk of no longer being considered as “belonging” to society.

Fortunately, modern day societies are moving towards a more fluid identity, one which respects and embraces differences rather than shun them. Not everywhere, of course, but I think this is the global direction in which societies are heading (or at worst, will head).