The Boston Marathon Nightmare

I am not  going to skew you,,,,, as I stand with you!

I agree with you wholeheartedly Giselle Minoli

I understand James Barraford. Then perhaps it’s appropriate for me to say that what your essay represents – to me – is the concept of balance. And perspective. And thinking about what we are doing and how we are behaving ourselves. An eye for an eye is a concept many of us never understood. Does it work anyway???

Giselle Minoli Google just introduced new G+ commenting system at places such as mine. Sorry

So these is  James Barraford  post on the  blog!  You are very brave…..    We have a system in place for a reason and   both of you understand it 🙂

Michael Rutherford I suspect that there will be waves of discussion about this as there was about McVeigh. There will be the Death Penalty issue. It will push every legal, moral, ethical, revenge, justice, cultural button we collectively have…

Giselle Minoli “I might disagree with you on some things, but I respect and support your right to say whatever you like on your wall, my wall, anyone’s wall.” You’re not the kind of person who would expect that everyone agrees with you on all posts. Being pro-execution absolutely does not equate with being anti-muslim. A nation that does execute murderers is certainly not uncivilized.

Andy White that was so civilized and thoughtful of you and I (and I trust James Barraford) am grateful to you. I think you are the wise one here. Yes, writing it out is our way of working through the complex issues. The legal issues to me (with all due respect to Jamie) are in a way the simplest, because once identified there is nothing we can do about them. Our personal feelings and beliefs however…that is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Cindy Brown  I have thought that too and I rather hope you prove to be right. The age thing is disturbing…and even that is an issue unto itself. What, exactly, is the line past which we no longer forgive someone, past which they are not cut any slack. Legally it’s 18, but the line between 18 and 19 is negligible.

Craig Lennox thank you for weighing in. I can’t imagine what it must be like to be in Boston. Heart breaking and gut-wrenching because, as the Times said today, it is just beginning – the re-hab – for those poor people who were hurt.

Mark J Horowitz I just have a very, very, difficult time with the Death Penalty. I don’t understand it. I struggle with what it means. With what it accomplishes. With what we tell ourselves about it. With how we describe it. With who performs it, sanctions it, watches it. The whole thing. What a mess.

Mark J Horowitz Here we don’t interpret that to include the death penalty, however.

New York City is a different neighborhood for sure. The Marathon Booming was terrible but death can’t always be the answer for there will never be an end to it all.

Giselle Minoli  I tried but it won’t let me ?

p e a c e

Cindy Brown and Giselle Minoli since these are federal charges and pleads down to life in prison, there is no chance for parole and he will most likely be confined to solitary for the rest of his life. For many, that might be a worse punishment than death.

So, what is more human? I’m not sure I know…

Giselle Minoli To be honest I don’t fully understand the new commenting system. I had no idea that if you respond publicly at my post that it makes your response effectively a reshare. I suppose it’s Googles way to expand their reach. I would say in the future to only list who you want seeing your comments on a story of mine if you don’t want it shared as a reshare. I don’t want people to not comment because they are afraid of that happening.

James Barraford — I am “anti-patriotic” to at least two countries… so yes, it’s a badge of honor.

So…James Barraford you are the encouragement everyone needs to always speak/write one’s mind…

I myself often have to remind myself not to give in to primeval impulses when life triggers strong emotional responses in me. I guess impulse control is the word here. And I know from lots of firsthand experience how emotions can be overwhelming and consume one and one’s better senses. I found it to very reassuring and comforting to see so many people on this thread and on James’ original blog post respond with careful consideration and in a civil manner. All is not lost, although some media and some vocal individuals might suggest otherwise.

The part I still haven’t gotten over and probably won’t is to see how some parties within society and in particular in government readily exploit these horrendous events to push their political agenda. I find that response even more despicable than any of the emotional impulses we had to witness since last week. For here – emotional – there is a common ground we can all understand as sentient beings, while there – in the political arena – a certain degree of cynicism seems to be at work when one dissociates oneself in the blink of an eye to press on with this or that agenda.

As to the two suspects, I can only hope that a continued, thorough investigation prior to due process will give us some insight into a situation I currently regard as disconnected dots of “info” that do little more than deliver grounds for rich speculation and yield very little real information, if at all. One might argue that it doesn’t matter much to know what specific background led up to the events, but I would have to strongly disagree on this. In fact, I demand authorities to give the public a complete and conclusive narrative that sheds some light on the coming about of all this horror and pain, so we all might stand a chance of becoming aware of its precursors and maybe even get to do our bit to avert such things to happen in the future again. (the latter might be wishful thinking at this moment, but a certain awareness in the general public for the environment that breads violence and to watch out for precursing events or parameters that ultimately inflict horror upon innocent people might be a due learning process after 9/11 and Boston). I am shocked and really angry to witness, how much inconclusive and contradictory noise that dresses as info is doled out via the mainstream and other media. Due process for sure, but a thorough education of the general public along with it!

Other than that, I feel James on speaking out. I’ve battled a lot myself over the past few days, whether or not I should express my authentic thoughts as to the events and the unfolding story. Sure scared away some Facebook “friends” on account of it, but oh well…

Giselle Minoli I’m not about to stop writing what is on my mind. That doesn’t mean that I’ll use Cultural Purveyor to be controversial, but there will a time here and there where I write stories like this. Some of us were born to be pains in the asses. I’ve accepted that I am one.

Giselle Minoli There is no such thing as deterrent. I see it everyday. The revolving wheel of the same cast of characters. Sometimes it’s circumstances that are the result of an unfortunate birth lottery, sometimes it’s the greater environment as they grow up, sometimes it’s the lack of proper schools and/or training. If I had a dollar for everytime I’ve heard someone say “you won’t see me again.”

Hi Craig Lennox Where is here and who are we? 🙂

I’m still not seeing anyone saying he shouldn’t get a trial. Again, the only discussion I’ve seen is what kind of trial.  I’m not seeing anyone call anyone else unpatriotic for any reason.

I see people that have no sympathy for him or how he got into this mess.  But, that’s about it.

Michael Rutherford this interview between the aggressively brainless Ann Coulter and the brainlessly aggressive Sean Hannity is truly frightening. Yes, she is suggesting that he not get a trial. She is suggesting that he should have been shot up in the boat and entirely prevented from having a trial. Listen:

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/04/23/fox-news-swings-from-uninformed-to-unhinged-to/193744

Truly frightening is right! We have our share of such media, some of which should rather be called populist and propagandistic, which means they’re taking little or zero information and fabricate a thicket of speculation and hateful vigilantism which then is on the table and can’t be ignored from then on any more. It’s almost like fiction writing. It’s really a very frightening, dystopian pattern that they employ – and successfully so… (in my country. And I see something similar going on in some mainstream media at the moment. Very disturbing!)

Because : “In sum, Hannity incorrectly claims that ethnicity and an unspecified “secret plot,” along with one brother’s practice of praying five times a day, YouTube videos, and trip to Russia are enough to classify the accused bomber as an “enemy combatant.” And if enough people buy into it, then undoubtedly the support is there to become quicker and quicker in labelling someone a terrorist, which then will lead to removing them from access to a fair trial or even just investigation. I find those claims to rather shoot them right in the boat to be a regression to primordial/Old Testamentarian times… Clearly, the US citizens can’t want that for their country, can they? (Please tell me they don’t….)

Matthew Graybosch that fact that you don’t have any sympathy for this man, along with your reasoning for assuring him a fair trial under the US Constitution is exactly what this post is about. While Hannity and Coulter are basically talk show hosts, Michael Rutherford, talk show hosts, celebrities and people with a wide-ranging public voice hold a lot of sway with people who cannot or do not want to think for themselves. There is a decided difference in a military tribunal and the kind of trial that most Americans are familiar with. Hopefully we can agree to disagree on this one?

Mark J Horowitz “Here” is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, which has not executed a person since 1947.

And here I was thinking it was because they wouldn’t have been able to handle the firestorm that might have resulted had they taken him alive….

Wan Nan You are suggesting that “Authorities give the public a complete and conclusive narrative that sheds some light on the coming about of all this horror and pain”. There is no justification for terrorists’ murdering innocent civilians. There were folks who tried that (blaming United States policies for 9/11). It did not work then and it will not work now, regarding the Boston Marathon incident. The reason that it doesn’t work is that it is utterly absurd.

 ie. Somebody mugs or rapes someone and one blames this act on his unfortunate, underprivileged childhood. Generally speaking, the immigrants who came to this country in the early part of the 20th century, came with little more than the clothes on their backs, yet they had good character and the great majority didn’t commit such crimes. A human being, the only creature on earth who is endowed with free will, bears responsibility for their actions, positive or negative, and must answer for them.

I don’t know.

I remember pretty much the same reaction toward McVeigh.  And we did ultimately execute him.

(I am not disagreeing with your sentiment, only that I think the attitude you note is not new from 9/11).

Cindy Brown it is true that McVeigh came first. Perhaps wrongly I make the distinction that he was born in America. He, too, was called a terrorist (that words seems to be flung around), but the circumstances of his life and his rage against America strike me as being quite different from the brand of terrorism brought here from abroad. We did indeed execute him and I still query capital punishment. I wish it were a black and white issue for me as it seems to be for so many, but it is not.

I would say that they are only irrelevant if one is not interested in those issues. I personally am Mark J Horowitz. And if we are to work to prevent increasing incidences, we must be interested in my view.

Cindy Brown I had not categorized McVeigh’s hatred of our government as a “political reason,” but rather his personal disgruntlement, which was significant. The Columbine incident strikes me more in line with Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook and Aurora…

I am aware of the general characterization Cindy Brown, but to me, notwithstanding the same noun used to describe him and the two brothers, there are distinct and important differences between the two and I personally am not comfortable rolling them together with the use of the word terrorist. This, I suppose, is why I am so interested in background, motivation, age, etc. because, deconstructing it all out, these incidences are all different. 

Mark J Horowitz Have you ever heard the expression “It takes two to tango”? The cause-and-effect phenomenon?

“There were folks who tried that (blaming United States policies for 9/11). It did not work then and it will not work now, regarding the Boston Marathon incident. The reason that it doesn’t work is that it is utterly absurd.”

It has everything to do with US foreign policies or else 9/11 simply wouldn’t have happened. I can’t begin to wrap my mind around, how some people succeed in turning a blind eye on that and stay in complete denial over the fact that our administrations’ policies – over there as well as here – have shaped the world we live in today. For as long as you divide people into “good vs. evil” without acknowledging that both qualities are in everyone at any given time, only in varying parts, so long we have these basic misconceptions of one party being feeling superior to another in any case of conflict of interests. It is exactly this type of thinking that has intensified friction and open outbreak of wars all over the world.

I personally think, we as sentient reflecting beings have an obligation to question our thoughts and actions at any moment in life, from first to last breath. Not doing so is equal to admitting that we’re just another breed of mammals hopelessly governed by our impulses.

You can’t possibly exempt the government from the concept and outcomes of such a thing as the “war on terror”. Before that, it was the Cold War era against the former Eastern block, before that it was war in Asia, before that the war against the British Empire. You can’t possibly call a part of the world “an axis of evil” as Bush coined it and afford yourself a moral high ground from that. There you went and nailed it…. I’m a hair away of thanking you for that high pass 😉

Cindy Brown I disagree with the general assessment, Yes, of what it means to be a “terrorist” and that McVeigh’s motive was “political,” when it seemed to have been a grudge. Which is the reason I believe we do have to come to some understanding of the “why,” not only in order to identify future instances but to try to prevent them as well.

I so appreciate all of your comments…I have a busy schedule today and must be off….

I am so grateful for the “gentle” and articulate and thoughtful men and women who converse with one another on my posts Wan Nan and Mark J Horowitz…

The fact is that the WHY this happened, WHEN they were “radicalized” (that is what it is being called), HOW the older brother influenced the younger brother, WHAT went on that made them go this direction in their lives is proving to be absolutely central to this investigation. Every single day I read articles in newspapers, journals and magazines about scientific studies on human behavior – our eating habits, love habits, study habits, exercise habits, work habits…our our behavior in everything we do. Why shouldn’t that effort to understand extend to the law and to the justice system? It must if we are to get along with cultures around the globe. Listen:

http://www.nytimes.com/video/2013/04/25/us/100000002191622/did-boston-suspect-slip-under-the-radar.html

Meg L as the days go by I am more and more disturbed by the entire militarization of the “event.” I will bet that we will never know what happened here, why the older brother was not watched more closely, what our relationship was with him, who the mysterious “Misha” is, why there is a picture of the younger brother straddling the side of the boat and then another robot-taken pix of him grievously wounded inside the boat…and beyond to, When? Next Week? Next Month? Next Year? What are the precedents that are being set? What are we condoning willingly? What are we going along with? What are we being told? What do we believe? Are we thinking for ourselves? Are we being spoon-fed information?

The whole thing bothers me…

It just reminds me of the unanswered questions surrounding 9/11 and what happened to the plane that hit the Pentagon and why none of the planes were intercepted. I’m not talking conspiracy stuff. I’m talking what are the concrete irrefutable answers stuff.

Me, too James Barraford. This entire issue raises for me the greater issue of what psychologists call “closure,” something that I personally don’t think exists. It’s one thing for a parent to die of something like cancer, when within the sadness of it all one might very well be able to say goodbye so that when the person dies there is a sense of completeness. There’s no one to punish – we all die of something.

But in cases like this, where suddenly a little boy and two young women die and dozens of people are maimed and it’s senseless and completely random (in terms of who happened to have been unfortunate enough to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time)…people often need closure – in the form of answers, justice…we got the “bad guy(s)!” And then, what? we can go back to normal? There is no closure. Those poor people still lost their loved ones and survivors have no limbs. But the thirst for closure can produce “answers” that only masquerade as “answers” but are in fact something else altogether.

Wan Nan Matthew Graybosch and James Barraford…I think Jamie and Matthew know this (not sure) but Wan Nan you probably don’t..which is that my father was “accused” of being a Communist and there was an investigation of him and I spent years and years getting his dossier from the FBI and when I finally received it, it was almost 75% redacted. Even though my father had been dead since I was a child I was not allowed to have the unredacted file, which was subsequently “destroyed” without my having been told this was going to happen. I will have questions about why my verbal, brilliant, peace-loving and highly educated father was investigated for the rest of my life.

I would like to think that it isn’t just people like me who ask questions like this…but all of us. Our Constitution, the principles on which our country was founded, these are sophisticated concepts and need to be continually protected in order for them to survive. And the public needs to be continually asked to reflect on what we are being told and what we accept and what we believe. Otherwise we are not using the full power of our personal responsibility as democratic citizens. That is my view, at any rate.

Matthew Graybosch I look forward to our “interview” about Without Bloodshed. I am absolutely certain you and I are going to have a lot to talk about.

James Barraford ping us all, please, when you post???

Wow, Giselle Minoli ! No, I had no idea, of course. From what you’re telling us, your father became a victim of the McCarthy era and all the frenzy of that time. And now that I think about it, much of the manipulation of the media and the public and the denouncing of individuals etc. are pretty much visible in this “war on terror” again. And how is it that I’m sensitive to that? Because staying alert and never allowing something like this to happen again was drummed into us as part of our education and growing up almost every other day. An entire generation and many more to come inherited all the guilt and shame of the wrongdoings of one man and his followers whom he was able to instrumentalize in order to bring about millionfold tragedy and over an entire continent.

Before I digress any more: I may have mentioned this here before. When I saw those police dressed in black combat wear and all having assault weapons pointed at civilians, I instantly “knew” – or felt, rather – that this is what it must have looked and felt like for my ancestors during this horrible period of my country’s history. You encouraged me to express a view coming from someone overseas, and all I can say in this regard is that I watched history repeating itsself with my own eyes over the past week(s) – and it is being aired and streamed almost 24/7 since the bombing attacks.

On a side note, there is this particular “behaviour” of your media, which I only seem to have become aware of now. And I’d like to think and believe that it’s still a tad dinstinct from the media in my country. I remember being on my honeymoon in September 1997, when Princess Diana was killed in this car crash. Our honeymoon basically came to a complete halt for a day or two. How could you simply take your mind off of things, when every channel was being flooded with the images and stories surrounding her death and when everyone talked about nothing else? And when I think about it, much like with 9/11 and Boston, there wasn’t basically anything else but speculation going on in the first few days. Every self-declared expert and their dog got a minute of airtime to express – their view of things. How is this reporting? What does it have to do with journalism and looking for confirmed facts? But this was about 15 years ago. Now, media in my country don’t differ all that much from yours any longer. 

The little story I began to share about my eBay snafu has possibly far reaching implications. Frankly speaking, it makes me very uneasy to think that fraudulent eBay transactions I and a fairly large number of people became victim of were later linked to funding of terrorist activities. It has me switch into a full blown panic attack to think that my name might now be linked to such activities in some file somewhere, of which I don’t even know, whether it exists, where it would exist and – worst of all – which I wouldn’t be given access to. After all, I only found out about two weeks ago that a second DA had an investigation going into this case and they hadn’t completed that investigation and closed the file until January 2012! In other words: Someone kept investigating me and this case for another one and a half years after the initial investigation – the one I knew about – had been completed and closed without evidence to my disadvantage. This is fact, it’s not paranoia or me going’ Mel Gibson in “Conspiracy Theory”. And it scares the living daylights out of me to now know how these things work. I have no way of finding out, whether any of this was being handed over to someone else upon their request and it drives me insane to know that we have tons of sleepers residing in this country and funding major operations in and from all parts of the world. Again: The first – personal – part is all factual reality and the second, sleeper-part, has been well documented on public media over and over. So anyone saying “conspiracy theories” to my face again, I’m going to stick their words up to where the sun never shines!!!! 

Now that I have obtained some – very much unintended and unwelcome – personal insight into some of these things and how they work and adding more personal knowledge into intelligence and counterintelligence from a source I had some closer personal affiliation with for some time, it isn’t a stretch at all to at least consider that they may have been doing and keep doing that very thing with those unfortunate two subjects/suspects (their parents insisted from day 1 that their sons got framed and said so separate from each other. They have never changed their views as far as I know. There was only this uncle, whom the brothers and their parents had been out of touch with for several years. I think, we can safely disregard whatever he has to say). After all, both – the brothers – seem to be fairly intelligent people and from the moment they saw their faces on TV, I’d safely assume that the last thing on their mind will have been to wait another three days and then “casually” hijack someone’s car at gunpoint and head to New York to party!!!!???? My goodness, the crassness of this profoundly dumb suggestion is an insult to anyone with a brain….

Now, some might say, alright, he’s crossed the line. Conspiracist. I beg to differ: I don’t assume for one minute that all this was premeditated or planned. If it was, it was a lousy job. For all the contradictory “info” flying around simply doesn’t make any sense. Unless they think, all of the US have already turned into speaking, walking, working burger patties, they should be really making an effort to come up with something conclusive. Even all that background stuff doesn’t make one conclusive narrative and is full of contradictions and lacking any shred of credibility. At least for me. Maybe I’m overlooking something, in which case I’ll love to get enlightened about it.

Either way – this is not right. And I’m afraid it never will be. Because from what I see, secret services and intelligence authorities are basically legalized criminals protected by regulations that puts them above the law. Again – “secret” being the keyword here. Or else, other authorities, politicians of the government or probably even regular citizens might demand full disclosure and potentially take legal action. But how can you accomplish this without knowing the real facts…?

Now feel free to go and turn me in or slaughter me…

I want a fair and open trial.

Empathy for what led him on the path of destruction?

I’m not down with that.

Reading that poem was akin to reading some schoolgirl who has never been to an inner city area writing first hand knowledge of what it’s like to deal with the daily gang violence. 

I’m really irritated now after reading that.

You’re right Wan Nan The brothers didn’t plan this at all. One just realized that he was impotent and the other was insulted, in a very embarrasing way, the night before. So the next morning when they woke up they texted each other and said. “We are having a really sucky life and fuck the world. In an hour, the marathon is starting. I’m real angry, must be our unfortunate background or some cultural; we don’t care to figure it out. 

Still mostly on digital sabbatical, but must say, the poem is not appropriate. Not to me. Sorry to comment & run. But I can’t appear to agree with it by my silence.

Wan Nan I’m a very modest person but when I encounter such ideas and opinions, I have a right to express my superior intellectuality. Your bias against America has you saying that I don’t understand the rest of the world. That’s a very foolish statement. Thank G-d I live in America. BTW, you mentioned earlier that at one time, people aimed guns at the people in your country. Who are the people in your country? Who held the guns and when did this happen? Hey, so I was a bit sarcastic, I’m only human 🙂

I want to add Mark J Horowitz and Wan Nan that I value your opinions equally.

They do indeed James Barraford. However, I firmly believe that the commitment has to remain to have vigorous, energetic but always civilized discourse, otherwise we end up behaving like those whose behavior we claim we can’t fathom, don’t understand and are unable to relate to.

I wonder if the universal reaction to that poem played a part. I hope not. I’ve reread it several times and it still irritates me each time.

Reading your comments I am reminded of a conversation I had with my stepson some time ago about the state of affairs between Israel and Iran. I told him that I could close my eyes and imagine two young men, of the approximate same age, height, weight, hair and skin coloring, one living in Iran, one living in Israel, each with a girlfriend, each hoping to make something of their lives, go to school, buy a house, start a family, when one day either of their countries decides to attack the other, the possibility that one or both of them will be killed and their dreams for the future dashed forever a strong possibility.

When I look at this young man’s face this issue for me is not empathy/no empathy. The issue is that a 19 year old guy’s brain isn’t fully developed until around the age of 25. (I’m not going to plug in all the links…they are there for anyone to read) There is little awareness of cause and affect, little awareness of the impact of decisions on others, little “empathy” for others. This is what has always scared me about the military…that we put young men whose physical prowess is quite something at that age into war situations that they are psychologically, intellectually, spiritually and emotionally incapable of dealing with.

So…the great issue (to me) is not this particular young man, but about indoctrination in general, the creation of rage and anger in general, the circumstances that lead to this behavior. And it doesn’t matter to me whether the young man is from an area of Russian few Americans have heard of or if it is one of our own whose interior mind is working against him.

To say a 19 year old was fully conscious of what he was doing is sort of an absurd statement to begin with. We draw this invisible line at the age of 18: Now you are an adult, but in reality people remain “children’ for a long time after that.

Aaaaaand – b.t.w.: Isn’t it interesting that “The Sum of All Fears” just airs on one of our public TV channels as I’m typing this? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0164184) The tale is told in a specific way. Very interesting.

You playin’ me, man, James Barraford ? (just kidding. exhale that I’m not being perceived as all crazy… for now LOL) P.S. Thanks for adding me, James Barraford 

Thanks, James Barraford . I appreciate that. As Giselle had encouraged me at some point to add a view that may be different from the common thread of discussion – and I’m aware that this is a broad generalization, which I usually try to stay away from… – I deemed it worthy to mention. My point basically being with this that I have known what it’s like to live with a continuous threat long before the war on terror was introduced into the global political agenda. (I say “global”, because it serves several global factions. Again, it’s interesting to notice, how quickly Putin offered to collaborate with the US on all things Chechnyan terror – when he apparently never responded to a previous FBI request on coming back with more information long before the actual Boston attacks…Can I say “two sides” again…?). In other words: I guess, I knew terror  from early on. And don’t forget Mogadischu and the attacks on the Olympic athletes in Munich 1972 and the left wing extremist terror against bankers and politicians during the “RAF” era (Red Army Faction, an extremist left wing organization terrorizing the country for many years during the 70ies). Come to think: We’ve been a target for the bulk of the post WWII era. And now, our equivalent of the DHS – Innenministerium für Sicherheit – know of “sleepers” financing, planning and organizing and terrorist attacks from within my country and unfortunately also against targets in our country… I still think, it’s politically exploited. And that is the real dark side to all of this….

Your expression of English is so superb Wan Nan I’d have thought you grew up next door to me. Perhaps you understand us better than we understand ourselves. I’m with Jamie on the value of your opinion (BTW, Jamie…many thanks for being co-host! I wish there were a way for us to formally do that other than in a HangOut).

Giselle Minoli The world is being indoctrinated by the media every single day (but not only in the ways of rage or anger). This does not exclude the most educated intellectuals. We think and act like characters on TV and in films, like rock and pop stars. We tell the same jokes as they do and think like them, but most people are not aware of it.

Wan Nan What were your ancestors experiencing during WWII and how did they feel? I will say what mine did after your reply.

People need to have entertainment in their lives simply to enjoy it and relax. Sometimes we attribute prophecy and sainthood to our “idols). Here are two cases in point: Bob Dylan has admitted that the protest and civil rights songs he wrote were just reflections of the world at that time and he knew that by writing and recording them, they would sell many records because of that.

John Lennon – “Give Peace a Chance”, “All you Need is Love” (BTW, I stayed up and cried all of the night that he was killed) was constantly getting into bar brawls. He wasn’t a very peaceful guy in his personal life but he lectured to the international world about peace.

Back then I and my generation, memorized all of their songs and thought they could do no wrong. “Ah but I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now”.

why?

That makes sense. Wait until you hear about about my inherited reminiscences.

I am afraid I am reacting at a much more emotional, “gut”, level… 

I was referring to the actual experiences of my ancestors, not too long ago.

The new Dylan album is brilliant btw.

I cannot respond to your thoughts properly James Barraford as my weary eyes are closing. Tomorrow then…

Thank you so much Wan Nan it is impossible to know this sort of detail about a person when first getting to know them on G+, but it is enormously helpful in putting together the bits and pieces of their commentary (yours in this case) over a long period of time. There are many people on G+ who would prefer no one share anything personal  – Unwanted Nuggets I believe a recent person frightened of the personal called them – but without them we know nothing about one another, we skim along the surface of the intellect’s limited “experience” of what enters the brain and sticks on the wax and it is left uninformed by any analysis of what has happened to the person as a result. This is the genre of literary nonfiction and it is my interest.

I await your response Mark J Horowitz…but Wan Nan these words belong to James Barraford not me: “Americans don’t want to see what was done in their names. We sit in front of televisions bewildered and angry that the world doesnt all love us. Sadly, the very reason i wrote the story last week is because I’m so pissed that my government has played a role in all the misery thrown our way and i want Americans to stop accepting and demand better.” 

Bulls in China Shops mellow with age and the become more tender James Barraford. I wonder if the people who have remarked that you “share” a lot of yourself here are men or women? It is far less common for men, unless they are fiction, nonfiction or poetical writers, and, sadly, becoming less common for women at least on public forums because of the nasty fanged troll varietal that lurks in the woods smacking its lips at the possibility of encountering just such a revealing soul.

No matter, I agree that there is no point in being here otherwise. I really don’t care how people use the medium. It is not endangered by cat gifs that’s for sure. It is endangered by trolls who can show up and with one comment derail a thread. It is a kind of “bomb” attack in and of itself.

Yes, the story does keep changing and isn’t that interesting James Barraford? That in and of itself shows the value of our collective posts – mine the night of the “capture,” your Cultural Purveyor article and my reposting of that. All in all, how little we know is stunning. I look forward to whenever and however your continued thoughts on the subject congeal into a follow up…

I’ve never believed this attack was two brothers alone. I still don’t. What levels of involvement from others (inside and outside the family) is TBD.

The parents canceling coming was interesting. So much for burying son.

The female DNA marks a significant component. Wife? Other? What all seemed certain now seems murky other than the brothers being there. Everything else is up for discussion.

Apologies for my absence yesterday but I had a long meeting and work to do afterward. I spent some time trying to find a documentary that I remember featured on 60 Minutes last year that was about efforts by descendants of some Germans to reconcile with descendants of some Jewish families. I say “some” because my memory is that it is an ongoing project and it was quite moving. It addressed many complex ideas – the pain of historical events carried into the future, the circumstances under which reconciliation can take place.

I’m frustrated that I can’t find the film clip and will keep looking, but I think it is the Action Reconciliation Service for Peace, through which the book Reconciling Lives was officially launched in Berlin. Both of these links are below: http://www.actionreconciliation.org/ and http://www.actionreconciliation.org/about-us/news/book-launch-reconciling-lives.html.

There is a similar effort going on with certain museums in Israel to connect Jewish youth and Arab youth through art. There are many links about this but here is one: http://israel21c.org/social-action-2/sculptures-open-a-dialogue-for-jewish-and-palestinian-kids/.

I’m thinking about all of this because reconciliation/understanding is so difficult attain. But is there any other way…ultimately? Getting back to Boston, my worry was that we would be off and running on yet another story woven around an entire people and what that means. It is layer upon layer of anger and rage, and then what?

P.S. For whatever reason whenever I’m in a coffeeshop alone I usually end up talking to someone…who is reading a book. In January I sat next to an African American man, who it turned out was a History Professor who was reading a book on the cultural legacy of the trauma of slavery. I asked him about the book and he was telling me how history can become a “script” so internalized that people can live their lives by a script written in the past – that the facts may be indisputable, but that living and moving forward requires a different effort. I can’t remember the name of that book either and am trying to find it. Very frustrating…

Ma certo Mark J Horowitz. You have had a busy schedule I note…

But of course, But certainly, You bet, Absolutely, Yessirreeeeee! Mark J Horowitz 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but somehow I just came across this through a trusted Facebook contact. The link points towards an article in German of one of the major mainstream media in my country. The article is an interview of historian Andreas Kramer, son of one of the main characters behind the 1980 Octoberfest bombing in my country, which killed 13 and injured more than 200 persons (bombs much like the Boston bombs filled with TNT and filled with shrapnel were used and placed in garbage cans, many people suffered similar injuries as the Boston victims, with several persons needing to have both legs amputated). Kramer’s father, who then was a member of our BND, which is a secret service much like the CIA, confirmed under oath that his father planned the bombing, built the bombs with other BND members and hired the bomber. Much like in the Boston bombings, the purported bomber was a young student (of geology in this case), whom they pinned it on.

The interviewee further confirms – and has confirmed the same thing under oath in an investigative trial – that there is a hidden paramilitary network called Gladio, which was installed by the CIA after WW II and recruits other secret services members in Western countries, including our BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst). Their mission to this day is to seed fear and insecurity among the population in Western countries through terrorist attacks, which then manifests an atmosphere of calling for stricter security regulations, which come at the expense of needing to sacrifice more and more civil liberties. The paramilitary network seems to be in operation to this very day, although maybe no longer under the above name. They have such hidden networks in my country and probably all of the Western countries according to research that the interviewee has conducted and presented, where the bulk of information comes from direct talks with his father. The interviewer closes by asking, whether the interviewee fears for his life after disclosing all this information. The interviewee replies saying that he can’t rule out that someone put a contract out on his behalf and that after the trials and investigations surrounding the Octoberfest bombing there were a number of deaths and killings of unidentified nature. He continues to say that he feels obligated to bring the truth out nonetheless. He refers to his father as a mass murderer and said that he was 17 when he learnt of all this. Asked, whether he had considered reporting him then or going public, the interviewee said, yes, he had deliberated that, but dismissed the notion on account of suspecting noone would have believed him anyway.

http://goo.gl/BiIZV

I have done my best to put the main points of this interview into a nutshell sparing myself the need to translate the entire article/interview. I think, we can agree that we can bury any talk of conspiracy theories. And I get the feeling, James Barraford , that your withholding to go in all the way revolves around ideas of this nature.

Although I largely don’t trust the mainstream media any more, I don’t think anyone would be as crazy as putting their life on the line in order to drum up allegations of conspiracies, much less if there was no or little evidence for them. However, according to this shocking testimonial what we’ve seen in Boston, in Munich and elsewhere is apparently part of standard secret service operation and has been for the past decades… The members of secret services being recruited for such inside jobs a priori use their rank and status as perfect camouflage to rid themselves of even becoming as much as suspects. Currently, we seem to see the very same thing going on with the trial being held in Munich, against Beate Zschäpe, who is the surviving supporting member of the right wing extremist cell “NSU”, who have carried out 10 murders against Turkish and Greek immigrants in my country.

As far as Boston, I had assumed something along those lines from the beginning, but much like James was reluctant to call it. After this article, however, which meticulously confirms every gut feeling I’ve been having, I don’t see the necessity to withhold any personal assessment any longer. In other words: The FBI (or the CIA or both) seem to have planned and staged the Boston bombings according to a minutely detailed plan. The utter brutality of this, I have no words for. On the other hand – why should we assume different knowing that the military sends their country’s soldiers to other countries knowing full well that a good deal of their people are going to die or get severely injured? And if they do that with recruited personnel, why should they spare anyone?

It’s simply mind boggling, I can’t let this fully settle…. or I go crazy. More on the Octoberfest bombing at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktoberfest_terror_attack

P.S. The interview is very recent and follows Mr. Kramer’s testimonial under oath before a Luxembourg jury. All evidence bearing DNA marks and other evidence beyond any doubt was destroyed in 1997. A reopening of the trial was attempted several times, the most recent one in 2005, but none of those calls to reinvestigate was heeded. Since all evidence is now gone, there is not too big a point in trying to go for another investigation again.

Oh, ok, thanks for clarifying, Giselle Minoli . As for the inaccessible links, they mostly relate to YouTube videos which have music in them, as our collecting society for musicians, GEMA, and YouTube have this dispute over compensation of artists. As a result, YouTube block videos containing music with the message, GEMA hadn’t released usesage rights to them. As far as the reconciliation program you mention, I was able to access it, but didn’t get into any further. I don’t feel any responsibility for that period of history, as it wouldn’t be until another 20 years into the future until I’d be born. In addition to that, while I believe in learning from the past, I don’t put a whole lot of stock into living in the past. Of course, it may and will be different for those, who have either lived in that generation or are direct descendants of it.

In terms of the report I mention, I agree on your saying that we’ll never have complete truth and knowledge about it. I had already mentioned this in a different comment reminding myself and us that it’s in the nature of covert operations that they aren’t supposed to be disclosed to anyone. I’d interpret the destruction of irrefutable evidence as an act of keeping a veil over these events, much like we saw during and after 9/11. But like you said, it’s a moot point to keep speculating over details we will likely never have complete clarity over given the nature of secrecy and for covert operations to be only “successful”, if the wider public never gains a full understanding of them, let alone detailed knowledge of facts as an investigation would likely turn up. However, I found this case to be remarkable, which is why I brought to the attention of participants in this thread, as I find Mr. Kramer’s disregard for his personal safety quite stunning and telling and as this story is being revealed at an interesting point in time, namely when the trial against this right wing extremist group in our country – the NSU terror cell – began just yesterday, which has been seeing major controversy prior to its beginning and which is expected – or hoped, rather – to shed some light as to the connection with this terror cell or even involvement of our secret and intelligence service in planning and carrying out of those operations. In other words, Mr. Kramer and the journalist interviewing him sort of dropped a (rhetorical, verbal) bomb themselves right around the start of one of the purportedly major trials in post WWII German history – not as significant as the Nuremberg trials, but being a close “runner up” to the first. Anyway, I just put it out there to consider and keep in mind when analyzing and discussing the Boston attacks. And in fact, the similarities between the Octoberfest bombing and the Boston attack couldn’t be any more striking – I’d say.

Good luck with your writing deadline!

Good point, Giselle Minoli . Yes, I’d say there is an awareness. However, the more I distance myself from views and notions that were instilled in me growing up and while receiving an education, I’m afraid this particular subject has become a very loaded one to the point where awareness has turned into something else. To give you an example: As a German citizen and particularly as a politician you are never to criticize Israel and their politics, no matter what. If you happen to be in disagreement over the settlements in the West Bank or the overall agenda of the Israeli government, you cannot say so openly without being perceived as offensive and extending anisemitic slurs. It’s a reflex. No distinction is being made between the people and the government’s politics. You simply cannot say anything critical or negative about some of the politics going on the Middle East. Period. I don’t find this climate to be helpful, much less for people of my generation who didn’t directly contribute to this historic catastrophe known as the Holocaust in any way, shape or form.

And if I may speak candidly: There is little discussion about our country’s politics on weapons’ deals. In fact, a large part of our export economy relies on exporting weapons, and in many cases to both parties being in military conflict over. I’d have to look for the exact sources, but it’s been reported over and over. I think, hypocrisy is the word that comes to mind here. In short: It’s hard to reflect on this without being put into one or the other box. I’m usually simply not going anywhere near the subject as it’s a hot button that doesn’t seem to provide room for real discussion.

The fact, that I’m speaking about some things here in your thread followed my feeling that we’re rapidly declining in terms of freedoms we take for granted and like I said after the Boston bombings and the man hunt, over there as well as here I see a major drive for exploiting such “events” politically and to the disadvantage of the rank and file citizen. I’m not even sure, to what extent we may have already passed a point of no return in regards to these freedoms, democracy and the political voliition of the majority. I get the feeling, we have and the public aren’t realizing it or actively look the other way for reasons of cognitive dissonance and protection their emotional sanity (keyword being: normalcy bias)…

Did that answer it?

Thank you for understanding and being the wonderful empath that you are, Giselle Minoli . I try to overcome my reluctance or sometimes downright fears one by one and I agree on what you’re saying in regards to communicating and understanding. I call it switching perspective or switching angle of view and I find it to be a required technique in order to have a civil, educating, enriching and often times very exhilirating conversation. But it doesn’t work this way with everyone, particularly, if people come with preconceived notions they are hell bent on holding on to for dear life. “Brickheads”, in other words. At the risk of sounding degrading, it is this type of mentality that I can only confront so often and when feeling very strong and stable myself. It feels like going into the ring without gloves or dental protection and it isn’t pretty, let alone productive. Hence, I all the more enjoy places like this, like your stream and the people populating it.

As far as music: I have heard of such research and results a few years ago through a German Jazz musician and music professor living and teaching in Bloomington, Indiana. In terms of keeping my own demons and scares in check, I’ve started to force myself to at least a little bit of time of playing the guitar or piano every day again and allowing myself to be exposed to music on a more frequent basis again. For some time, this didn’t seem to make sense, as fear had completely engulfed me to an extent, where I was advised to seek medical, inpatient help. As this won’t happen, I am finding music and the gift bestowed to be a wonderful resource of self help and healing. It will take time, and it feels different than in my twens, but it’s there, so why not use it. 🙂 Thanks for your inspiring thoughts and replies!

And so, nine months after I made this post, we arrive at the announcement today that the Death Penalty will be sought in the case against Dzhokhar A. Tsarnaev, the Boston Marathon Bomber. Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr. said, _*The nature of the conduct at issue and the resultant harm compel this decision.”

The strange thing about that statement is that it deflects the responsibility for the decision to “the nature of the conduct at issue,” as though the decision were outside of the consciousness or psychology or intellect or brain of the Attorney General.  How odd. The link to the article is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/31/us/boston-marathon-bombing-case.html?hp

Craig Lennox I’m so interested to read that reaction from you. Are we alone in this view? I think you phrased it brilliantly: “…savagery being done in our name but against our will.” That reminds me of how I felt after 9/11 as a New Yorker. Those of us who lived in the City were not screaming from retribution and invading Afghanistan. We were generally horrified.

What is the reaction in Boston among those you know…may I ask?

I am with you in this Craig Lennox. I simply fail to see what it will accomplish. None of those unfortunate people who died will be brought back. The lives of none of the people who survived and will spend years struggling with their deformities and scars will not, in my view, be healed by this. Putting this misguided kid to death is not going to solve a single thing…except feeding the frenzy for retribution that fuels the existence of the Death Penalty to begin with… 

…and that certainly is a good thing Michael Rutherford 

I wasn’t saying that the survey results mean that it is right Giselle Minoli. I just get the impression that there are those that believe a minority support death penalty and that is not the case. 

Ok Giselle Minoli. But one thing that always bothers me when these death penalty arguments come up is that they generally occur around a specific case.  Such as this one.  And, they aren’t often framed in terms of the death penalty itself.  The result is that those arguing that the someone in particular shouldn’t be subject to the death penalty come off as being soft on crime.

I’ve read the article. This is insanity. To this day, I am not buying the official version. Something tells me, everything in this case stinks. And so does the announced course of action. Gah… I can’t believe this. They’re going to stop the heartbeat of an at least misguided, possibly manipulated young man to cater to the lowest of human instincts: Retribution. We’re not evolving… But it soothes me to read so many considerate as well as questioning comments here on your wall, Giselle Minoli .

Readers Digest version. The death penalty is state sanctioned murder. Shame on the American people for continuing to support a barbaric institution shared with ugly totalitarian regimes such as North Korea and Saudi Arabia.

Misguided?? Please give me a break!!

Kindly illuminate the rest of us Mark J Horowitz with what exactly, and I do mean exactly the death penalty accomplishes. I want facts and figures. I want proof that it is justice. I want proof that every single person directly affected feels better, is happier, is healed. I want proof that there is less violence, less crime, that we are safer, that such a practice is better for us culturally, socially, politically, economically. I want proof that our relationships with ourselves and other are fixed because of this practice. Prove it to me. I really don’t care what anyone calls this young man. That is not the issue. The issue is the practice of capital punishment and the seriously misguided belief that it does any good at all. The practice is morally, ethically, spiritually wrong on every conceivable level. You are merely pretending that it isn’t because you need to believe something about its effectiveness that has never been and will never be true. That is not justice. That is blindness.

I asked for proof, which you could not give me in any form Mark J Horowitz. Your answer is the reason that I wrote that capital punishment is morally, ethically and spiritually wrong. There is no “proof” that it is the right thing to do. It is therefore misguided. Yes, in my view. But in the view of a lot of other people too, including family members of victims, who are more and more lobbying not to further aggravate a committed crime by committing yet another one. If you are curious, you can read about this in the The Atlantic, courtesy of Anne-Marie Clark who shared it this evening on my other post about the Ohio execution last week. For what it is worth to you, the majority of people on these posts are against capital punishment. There must be a reason for that…

Still friends? I hope so.

You know Giselle Minoli , I don’t stay up this late on a weeknight just for anyone. Didn’t John Lennon sing that to Paul in “How Do you Sleep at Night”? I don’t dislike you because you disagree with me. Most of the time I sleep at night, but when I don’t it’s not this issue that keeps me up. Do you believe in punishing people for crimes other than murder, or would you also refer to them as misguided? “Grew up poor, single welfare mother, flunked out of school, bad friends – so he kidnapped, raped and tortured someone”. – just misguided – don’t lock him up – send him to a therapist, right?

I remember feeling a palpable loss when the federal government (yes, that’s still “we the people”) executed convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.

What loss? I am not entirely sure, but I felt that important information about motivation and co-conspiracy were extinguished forever.

It is important to know …. Jack Ruby effectively did the same thing. The mystery remains ….

Let’s do a thought experiment, shall we? Two weeks ago, I somehow came across and read this article. https://medium.com/life-changes/896225bd52ca

I would like to encourage everyone having chimed in on this thread to read it. It is a very gripping, poignant and realistic sounding description of a person losing a dear one in a car crash and dealing with the aftermath of having lost that person. (Other than in the context of this discussion it’s also an excellent warning to people, who think it’s o.k. to text and drive… To me, the gap between this motivation and setting out to deliberately kill is not all that wide – both know the (potential) consequences and are o.k. with them….)

If you’re talking punishment then I suggest whoever takes another person’s life be confronted with something like that above article details. In other words, I agree with those above who say that if you call for punishment, something along the lines of somehow “rubbing it in” with the person who committed a violent crime or took another person’s life is more along the lines of punishing than the “deep sleep” as you call it. And maybe, it even prompts some growth in that person who thought it o.k. to hurt or kill other people. Then something positive would have been achieved.

As far as “justice”: I’m not exactly happy with that idea, either. Exactly whose justice? Apparently, the perpetrator of a violent crime felt justified to commit said crime in the first place, too. So, state-sanctioned justice is better, because more people are behind it (if that is so in the first place)? That’s stone age thinking to me.

Besides… 9/11 was a wake-up call for me. Governments, authorities, secret services and even the media – can’t be trusted. We’re being manipulated day in, day out and in the name of power so. But I’m digressing…

Jack C Crawford thank you for pointing out the undeniable and sobering reality that execution ends a life but does nothing to bring closure to the great mystery of “why.” Some people may not care how and why such people become such misguided, dangerous and vengeful people…but I do. At this moment I think back on our invasion of Iran Hussein and his two sons are dead. So is Osama bin Laden. But we are no loser to ending the war on terrorism than we ever were and we all wait in fear over whist could happen in Sochi. There are people operating against harmony and peace everywhere. What? We’re going to kill them all?

Giselle Minoli My mom was a corrections officer in a mens prison. The tales she would tell an impressionable and semi-wild teenager. I now work in the criminal system. Prison is not the Club Fed as so many think.  

I don’t believe anyone here would want to spend even a weekend in gen pop.  Now think in terms of decades, maybe many decades.

That is infinitely more punishment that ending the murderer’s life.

DP advocates use deterent…. bullshit. If that were the case everyone that serves time would never commit crimes again to land back in jail. I see firsthand that’s not the case.

DP  advocates use punishment…. see above for that.

What it boils down to is vengence. That’s all the DP is…. vengence. Let’s be clear and let’s be honest. It’s simple vengence and nothing more. The rest is dishonest bullshit cloaking an inability to see the situation for what it really is.

And yes, I have first hand experience on the subject.

My wife’s best friend was murdered three weeks before our wedding. Shot multiple times while working in a fast food establishment at closing time during a botched robbery.

 It was devastating.  But throughout the legal process, we never wanted the four teens to die. We wanted a life without them on the streets to inflict that pain again. And that’s what happened to the ones old enough to be tried in criminal courts, including the actual shooter.

James Barraford ah…so very sorry for your and your wife’s wretched experience before your wedding…and, obviously, in light of your own story, for that woman’s family and all those who suffered because of her death.

But what strikes me, and I can’t get away from this, is why some of us so clearly believe (Instinctually? Naturally? Spiritually? Reasonably? Intellectually? Philosophically?) that the DP, as you put it, is not a solution, and why we clearly also see a difference between what so many people claim to be “justice” and what it really is, which is “vengeance.” Those two words have nothing to do with one another and all sorts of images float to mind when I think about vengeance. I free associate to anger, to rage, to bullying, to retribution, to all those old images of the mafia, to the stupidity of An Eye for an Eye, a Tooth for a Tooth.

The problem with seeking vengeance or some kind of pay back for crimes is that it cannot be accomplished in a state of peace or grace or harmony. It is always accomplished accompanied by rage and anger and hatred and self-satisfaction and dissatisfaction and the need to inflict pain, the need to watch someone suffer who has caused someone else to suffer. This, to me, is sick. It is, basically, a self-perpetuating cycle of hatred. I’m sorry but I don’t know anyone who believes in the death penalty who is at heart a peaceful and peace-making person. Because in order to believe in the DP…it needs to be accompanied by other beliefs that support it and this is why I think the issue is not a legal one, but a spiritual one.

We hear the message that you are conveying, Jamie, about what it is really like on the inside from many, many people. Why it isn’t listened to is also part of the problem. In order to go down the road of really investigating a way out of this mess, cynicism, sarcasm, rage, hatred and blood thirst need to be left behind altogether.

Giselle Minoli Ex-mayor David Dinkins once erred in the use of “An Eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”, by taking it literally. That precept in the Torah is meant strictly in a financial sense meaning that if my ox gores your cow and damages or kills it, the court determines the monetary value of the cow, and I have to pay that amount to you. It has never meant knocking out someone’s eye or tooth.

Giselle Minoli You are too intelligent by three, my friend.

Giselle Minoli Never a need to apologize. I thought it was funny. Other than my wife, my best friend of over 30 years is female.

This is a very heavy thread, nothing wrong with some levity.

This is an interesting thread. There is disagreement over the efficiency of one form of punishment vs. the other. But punish we must, agreed?

Allow me to think a heretic thought: Are we really punishing the people responsible for all this? I don’t think we are. Wasn’t it the authorities’ exact job to prevent something like this tragedy from happening? And for whatever reason: They did not deliver! And now, we’re being presented with this story of this young man, who was under some detrimental influence from his brother’s, who apparently was less lucky in adjusting to the place his parents had decided for him to live in and we’re supposed to believe that these two young man carry out a tremendously heinous deed under the constant surveillance of an army of so-called “experts” and get away with placing bags on the boardwalk and walk away from them and all of this bullshit, while this same army of experts was on site for no other fucking reason than looking out for things of this exact nature?????

I will never – ever !!! – buy the official version of this whole thing! And with this being said: We’re NOT looking at the real perpetrators! If it were for me, I’d get this young man acquitted. He’s ruined for life as it is from the events he was exposed to and subjected to. Lynch or block me, if you must.