The first time I heard Tracy Chapman sing Baby Can I Hold You Tonight I cried. It was 1988 and I was going through a difficult time with my mother. Things had happened and been said and done that were hurtful and wounding and we couldn’t find our individual or collective way toward forgiving one another, apologizing to one another, and moving forward.
I played the song over and over and over again, the vibration of Chapman’s richly resonant voice speaking for me when I couldn’t speak for myself.
“Sorry
Is all that you can’t say
Years gone by and still
Words don’t come easily
Like sorry like sorry”
Days, weeks and months went by before we spoke. I knew, I knew, that we would never agree about what had occurred, who had said and done what, who was responsible, who was at fault, and it didn’t matter. We could no more move toward one another than I could have walked barefoot over the Himalayas. I simply couldn’t forgive what I perceived to be her unforgivable slights. I simply couldn’t say I was sorry for my own.
“Forgive me
Is all that you can’t say
Years gone by and still
Words don’t come easily
Like forgive me forgive me”
I have been thinking about the turbulent years of my relationship with my mother since reading Paul Tullis’s article, Can Forgiveness Play a Role in Criminal Justice, because it pays tribute to a group of people who are, in my view, truly visionary and enlightened about forgiveness. For anyone to forgive themselves for having wronged another person, or to forgive someone for having wronged them is a kind of personal Rubicon – one of the most challenging, but necessary, of spiritual steps. One that we each have to cross if we are ever to be free.
But forgiving someone for hurting you emotionally is one thing. So is apologizing for hurting someone else. But what do you do when someone kills someone you love? Forgive them? How many people can do that?
The Dramatis Personae in Tullis’s article include young Conor McBride, who shot and killed Ann Margaret Grosmaire, his longtime girlfriend, and their respective parents, Michael and Julie McBride, and Andy and Kate Grosmaire. Before I go any further, let me state that all six of these people loved and cared about one another. They cared about one another so much so that the night that Conor, completely out of control of himself, shot Ann in order to bring a definitive end to their constant fighting, their parents banded together to come to terms with what had happened without turning Conor into a monster murderer and Ann into a victim for eternity. Those definitions of the two “kids” these four parents had loved and still loved, were not definitions that, in the end, they were willing to live with.
I’m not going to review the entire story, because it is so worth reading and pondering and turning over and over in our heads. But I wanted to share it particularly in the wake of the shooting in Sandy Hook, when so many parents and grieving family members are facing this simple yet seemingly impossible to answer question: How do you go forgive someone for something that is unforgivable?
I don’t know, but I’m inspired by the parents of these two kids and a criminal justice system that thought outside the box. And I’m inspired by our own Grace O’Malley, who wrote a personal essay, Forgiving a Murderer, for The Cultural Purveyor in November 2012, which you can read here: http://culturalpurveyor.com/forgiving-a-murderer/
I leave you with the last stanza of Tracy Chapman’s brilliant song, which you should download and listen to because it’s stunningly beautiful.
“I love you
Is all that you can’t say
Years gone by and still
Words don’t come easily
Like I love you I love you”
– Tracy Chapman, Baby Can I Hold You Tonight
And, as always, grateful to you for taking the time to read and share whatever thoughts you may have.
Giselle
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/06/magazine/can-forgiveness-play-a-role-in-criminal-justice.html?hp
January 8, 2013 at 4:19 am
Matthew Graybosch nor I, to be honest. I would like to think I am capable of it, but I am not sure. I wonder if the group solidarity that they had with one another, allowed them each to be stronger than they would have been otherwise. It just seems to me that they led one another there. I felt this way particularly after reading the father’s reaction to see his daughter in the hospital and feeling her talking to him. It’s powerful stuff.
January 8, 2013 at 4:23 am
P E Sharpe I don’t know if I could either. Nor do I know whether I could live with not forgiving. As for power over another? I don’t know. These people seem to have claimed something back for themselves. There is also the gun issue and Conor’s father acknowledging that had it not been in the house it wouldn’t have happend
(Whoever is reading this I beg you not to come back at me with the theory that this kid would have gone out and bought a gun because I personally believe that is rubbish and it is not what this post and story are about. Thank you for respecting this request.)
January 8, 2013 at 4:27 am
Shared and thank you so much. This is very special.
January 8, 2013 at 4:34 am
Bj Bolender Thank you so much…I sort of wish I knew why you feel that way! ;_
January 8, 2013 at 4:34 am
What works for me is to find as many pictures of the one I need to forgive including me, pictures especially from their childhood, dwell on them and imagine what they would say as a child when asked “what do you want to be when you grow up?” imagine the answer and compare it to who you think they are now, and wonder just what all happened that derailed those plans, things maybe you don’t even know about, but dwell on that cute face, those bright eyes, open for adventure, for life, that’s who they still are, that’s who we still are, just takes some convincing to respect ourselves and our loved ones, the child we still are deserves a break !
January 8, 2013 at 4:42 am
P E Sharpe I know people who share your view and I confess it isn’t one that I understand or share. I don’t think there is anything tidy or easy about forgiving someone, whether it is the result of a direct request or not. I think it’s rather the opposite, highly complex and taking a lot of rigor. Nor does it imply the “end” to any feeling or a changing of the facts or a denial of wishing things were otherwise. It is something that seems to me to be quite on the other side of all of this, neither religious nor philosophical nor intellectual nor emotional in nature, but rather purely an act of forward movement. It somehow makes sense to me, particularly for this particular group of people.
I don’t pretend to know what I would do or how I would feel under such circumstances. I would like to think I don’t know everything about myself…yet.
January 8, 2013 at 4:43 am
The only person hurt by holding on to anger, hatred, or any other type of ill-will is the person doing the holding on. You are not going to angry or hate the other into submission. Forgiveness is about letting go of the anger and hatred, not only as an act of righteousness towards the one who has hurt you, but as an act of healing for yourself.
I spent 9 years of anger and, admittedly, hatred towards my mother for the way she behaved after she and my father divorced. She was selfish and thoughtless towards my Dad and towards her four children. From the time I was a senior in high school, through college and grad school, and up to the several months before I got married I did not speak to my mother. But as I was about to begin a new life of marriage, of commitment forever to another, I felt the nagging truth that I needed to forgive my mother. Was I to deny her whatever joy she would have in seeing her oldest child marry a wonderful woman? Was I to start my marriage with this unresolved relationship and have my wife never even meet or speak to my mother? It was just not right – not right with my Christian values and just not right in my gut. I knew at my base that I was no better than my mother in other aspects of my life – I had hurt people, I had done things I was ashamed of. My mother is as human as I – and all of us humans fall short of perfection each and every day.
So I forgave her. I called her up, I told her that it was time for it all to end, I invited her to the wedding, and I told her that I forgave her. Of course, I knew that repairing the relationship would take a longer time and more work, but forgiveness is the first step. Forgiveness is the recognition that we all fall short and we all have hurt another. I hung up the phone and told my wife-to-be that I felt like a huge bag of rocks had been lifted from my shoulders.
I would like to think I could forgive even a murderer – I hope to never have that test cross my path. I do know that the ability to forgive is within us all because I do know someone that has truly forgiven unspeakable things done to them and it is an amazing thing to see.
January 8, 2013 at 4:52 am
Daniel Bobke thank you for taking the time to write that, to reveal that personal story. I am familiar with that feeling that you had, letting go of the bag of rocks is like cutting a shackle off your foot. No more chained and bound. We cannot change the past. We can never change the past.
January 8, 2013 at 4:52 am
Giselle, I’ve struggled most of my life with non-forgiveness within my family and have seen the consequences of despicable behavior and poor choices. Have always been told forgiveness is absolutely necessary but it seems to me that part of forgiveness would then be selfish and also take something away from the memories that should not be forgotten.
This article and also the way you wrote of your argument with your mother are the first experiences I’ve had where I have to question myself again. Not saying I will change, but yes, this is the first time I am going to meditate and perhaps.
January 8, 2013 at 4:53 am
P E Sharpe Forgiveness does not take away the feeling of loss or somehow magically erase a memory. I don’t think anyone who delves deeply into forgiveness would ever say that. It is the first step towards the process of restoration, as noted in the article. A parent will never forget the loss of their child, and they would certainly always wish that it would never have happened. What these parents decided is that it was up to them to stop the losses. If they held on to the anger and bitterness, it would eat away at their lives as well – and I am guessing their daughter would not want that.
January 8, 2013 at 4:53 am
How kind of you LC Freiderici. For what it’s worth I’m a big fan of forgetting the subject matter and enjoying the journey. And that goes for my comment thread, too! It goes where it goes and I, too, enjoy the journey. The subject will be there to get back to soon enough. Soon enough. Soon enough.
January 8, 2013 at 4:58 am
You are welcome Giselle Minoli. I think it is incumbent upon all of us to share our lives and experiences when the opportunity arises. As a Christian, I struggle with the example of forgiveness that is presented to us because it is humanly unattainable. However – that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t keep stretching and trying, right? I think the kind of forgiveness the parents in the article you shared have displayed is a supernatural one – one that we can barely comprehend from the outside.
January 8, 2013 at 5:00 am
Giselle Minoli, this is the second time to-day that this post has appeared in my stream. As I commented to the previous poster that while I agree, I can’t hep but wonder how this forgiveness would have played out if the two sets of parents had not known each other.
January 8, 2013 at 5:00 am
Bj Bolender I’m right there with you. That’s why I wrote that I felt forgiving (ourselves or) someone is like a personal Rubicon. There are many, many things, emotionally, I wish I could do and for whatever reason at any particular moment in time, sometimes I just can’t get there. What fascinates me is my awareness of it, my desire to cross that Rubicon, my seeming willingness to cross it, but my absolute inability to do so. So you/we/I/all of us are not alone in this by any means and we all respond to it, react to it, solve it differently.
If I have written anything to cause your meditation on it, know that it is mutual and I go there with you. 😉
January 8, 2013 at 5:02 am
I would agree P E Sharpe – forgiveness is the full realization of letting go of the anger and bitterness. One can stuff it away or try to forget the feelings or hope that time will soften them, but I think it is not quite complete without the extension of forgiveness. This is my experience anyway…
January 8, 2013 at 5:16 am
Hi Oksana Szulhan that is a most interesting question to ask. If I am to believe Tullis’s portrayal of the journey these four parents went on – and the quality of his writing leads me to believe these are quite conscious people – then I would say that it might very well be possible to reach the same conclusion. I say that because there were many people within this story who did not know the main characters in the saga, who did not believe in the road the parents wanted to go down, but, in the end, the entire Zeitgeist of the process, the process of examining their belief systems, their conscious thought processes, their knowledge of themselves and their kids, changed the points of view of other people.
I think we often forget how powerful words are. They can move mountains. I think we often forget how powerful people are. They can change us. Such, it seems, was whatever confluence happened in this case. Might it have been more difficult had they not had prior knowledge of one another? Perhaps.
But I could just as easily make a case that this act was so heinous that it could have caused an irreparable rift between the parents. That they didn’t let that happen is extraordinary. Superhuman as Daniel Bobke notes. And perhaps beyond the capacity of many of us and I include myself in that.
January 8, 2013 at 5:24 am
george glavas your comment made me think back years ago to a criminal justice story about a young man who was being tried as an adult at 18 for a horrible crime he had committed. The story about him was that just four short years before, when he was 14, many people were saying that he had been subjected to so much abuse and crap in his life that he needed considerable help if his life was not to fall through the cracks. That support never came and indeed he slipped further and further underneath the floorboards of our society until, voila! he was no longer seen as as helpless kid, but as a menace to everyone around him.
Just like that. One instant a helpless kid. The next a rogue menacing adult. In one moment he was a child. In the next, someone to lock up and punish. How does that happen? Where is the line that is drawn?
I don’t have the answers to these questions. But boy are we tough.
January 8, 2013 at 5:32 am
Thanks, Giselle Minoli but I still wonder, as you pointed out with your description of ” . . . their conscious thought processes, their knowledge of themselves and their kids, changed the points of view of other people. ” and how it may have impacted their points of view.
To me, it seems like they were already almost a family ( the teens were engaged to be married ). Maybe I’m just caught up in another saga of two families, who didn’t know each other, and had suddenly been thrown together in this scenario.
I’m not sure how their thoughts would have worked under those circumstances.
January 8, 2013 at 5:43 am
I guess what I’m suggesting Oksana Szulhan is that a perfect stranger can have a profound affect on someone. I am often more affected here by strangers than I am by my closest friends and family. So I’m not so sure that the sense of family was what shifted things. It started with one person. And, as we see in this thread alone, people disagree. So maybe it’s about a willingness not to be married to one’s belief system from yesterday? I don’t know. Perhaps it’s the definition of living in the moment? I don’t know. Something happened among these parents. It could just as easily have gone the other way.
January 8, 2013 at 5:58 am
I’m not sure about that, Giselle Minoli; these types of exchanges among individuals who really have no human contact with each other is not the same as people who know each other well, and in person.
January 8, 2013 at 6:06 am
My best friend was killed by a drunk driver, a repeat offender, twelve years ago. Her mother wrote to her killer in prison. Another woman I know drove drunk and caused the deaths of everyone else in her car. She and the mother of one of those killed have reconciled and now speak out against drunk driving – together.
To forgive is to let go and to be released at once, to accept that we cannot control our circumstances and to cease to be controlled by them.
Have I forgiven the man who killed my best friend? I suppose so, though it does not feel like the transcendent relief some might expect or hope for. I do not love him. Now that he is out of prison, I fear a little more for my safety and the safety of those around me. But I do not hate him. I pity him, and the child who was in his car when he struck my friend’s bicycle. But he does not own me, nor does he own the memory of my friend. He has passed out of my life.
Would it be harder to let go if I had to see him every day? Of course it would. But probably all the more necessary, in that case, to forgive.
January 8, 2013 at 6:10 am
I like your comment about forgiving and letting go, Christina Talbott-Clark, but I don’t believe that to forgive is the same as to let go. And hate has nothing to do with this.
January 8, 2013 at 6:23 am
Oksana Szulhan Hate does have one thing to do with this, for me, at least. I chose not to hate the man who killed my friend.
January 8, 2013 at 6:29 am
Nope, T. Pascal you’re not wrong; I totally agree with you. I can let go without forgiving; I’ve asked forgiveness, and have had to, in some circumstances, just accept that someone hasn’t forgiven me – and I’ve had to let that go. I think that ” forgiveness ” has become another buzz-word.
Insofar as hating, Christina Talbott-Clark, that’s a strong word and sentiment. I can’t hate someone I don’t know, let alone haven’t met.
January 8, 2013 at 6:29 am
T. Pascal I don’t think this can be a matter of objective correctness. Everyone grieves differently. While to me forgiveness – or what I consider forgiveness – is not about remorse on the part of the offender, nor does it really have anything to do with the offender, being a process of self-liberation, that does not mean everyone thinks as I do, or should, or would necessarily benefit from doing so.
January 8, 2013 at 6:33 am
Oksana Szulhan I think in many cases it’s easier to hate those we have not met, for we have no opportunity to see them as human beings, only as ciphers and reflections of our own fears and pain. But again, I can speak only for my own experience.
January 8, 2013 at 9:40 am
no criminal controll or justice system based on the concept of punishment…that is ‘harm another because they did harm’… is ever going to lead to improvement….of any kind except perhaps improved torture…
January 8, 2013 at 3:09 pm
Apologies for turning in early last night – tired. Thought about all of this as I was drifting off…particularly the difference between letting go and forgiving, Speaking only personally, I’m not sure that for me there is any difference between the two. Speaking only personally, I’m not sure what it means to let go but not forgive. I never understood the phrase Forgotten but not forgiven, because if it isn’t forgiven there remains profound remembrance which eats ones insides like termites.
Spiritually, religiously or led by wisdom, I don’t know, the people I have met in my life who have the ability to forgive seem happier to me. Conversely, I know many people who have made a choice not to forgive wrongs done to them and there often seems to be a constantly present and palpable anger.
To forgive means to let go of anger. It does not mean to either tell the other person or yourself that the crime was by any stretch of the imagination okay, alright or acceptable.
Anger is one of our emotions to be sure. A certain amount of it is a motivating factor and even healthy to a certain degree if it gets one out of a situation they shouldn’t be in. But it’s long term health implications, the more I read about it, are worrisome – emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, creatively. It can suck the life out of a person.
January 8, 2013 at 3:24 pm
May I direct you all to Rogue Black’s re-share of this post, because she made a comment there that I felt was beautifully expressed:
“Rogue Black Yesterday 10:08 PM+2
I think +Giselle Minoli’s personal story is very moving and the way she writes is wonderful. The article story about the two families was touching and I cried. I think amazing people find the power the forgive because they are saving themselves from the anger that the Dalai Lama advised the attorney to overcome. I don’t know if I would ever have that kind of wisdom and strength. I also put a lot of emphasis on how Conor’s father took responsibility for teaching his son anger and how both sets of parents agree that the rifle should not have been in the home. It underscores my personal aversion to guns in the home. It underscores how children learn from us and how cycles of behavior, both good and bad, continue and affect different people. We can’t control or foresee what our kids will do but we can control our own actions and what we teach by example. I think it’s groundbreaking that Florida allowed this alternative-sentencing format that handled human beings instead of just a heinous crime. I think it’s stunning that such an emotionless process could make room for compassion instead of seeking their own bloodlust for filling cells and winning cases.
I think a lot of things about this post but none of it is organized. ;)”
Rogue Black’s re-share and my response is here:
https://plus.google.com/116255588673959227206/posts/An6a3mgsfZh
Thank you, Rogue…
January 8, 2013 at 4:04 pm
The rifle was not the issue – Conor’s behavior was the issue. His ability to control his emotions was the problem. Had the rifle not been there, he would likely have found another way to hurt her. While I agree that if you have a person in the home that has these kinds of issues, you are better off not allowing them access to a firearm or any other weapon, the real basic issue was clear – Conor had been taught improper behavior from his parents.
January 8, 2013 at 4:09 pm
Daniel Bobke in an earlier comment I asked everyone not to go the gun ownership route. Please let’s not. I repeated it here because it is the belief of Conor’s own father as clearly stated in the article. You personally may disagree with that, but the father’s belief is one of the more moving aspects of this “restoration” in this family. It doesn’t really matter what any of us might think about that. I personally am interested in what elements drove the parents themselves to make the decision they made – on behalf of Ann and Conor.
January 8, 2013 at 4:16 pm
Giselle Minoli Thank you for quoting me. A friend was pushing me to comment but my thoughts about the whole thing were still jumbled and that’s what came out. I hope my remarks about the gun part don’t continue to cause trouble. That part about the parents’ feelings about the rifle stood out to me because of my personal feelings. What I said isn’t intended to launch an insightful debate about gun ownership. Their whole story is still very stunning to me and the way you’ve drawn parallels about the types of feelings involved in forgiveness and growth are profound. There is still a lot to think about and consider.
January 8, 2013 at 4:26 pm
Rogue Black I appreciated your comment not only because I thought it was so well “organized” but because instead of it focusing on your beliefs about gun ownership, it pointed out the father’s own conclusion, which is indeed profound in terms of the outcome and the story itself.
I do not want a debate about gun ownership here. I made a post the day of the shooting in Sandy Hook, which I had intended to be Public, but because I was posting it from my iPhone from a doctor’s appointment it went out Limited to my Circles. That post garnered about 260 comments and addresses gun ownership among other things. Anyone who is in my Circles and wants to comment still can read it here:
More than 20 elementary school children injured or dead:
https://plus.google.com/104028329852681318179/posts/P7wnZoEkSnp
That aside, thank you so much for your thougths Rogue Black.
January 8, 2013 at 4:32 pm
I was only responding to Rogue Black’s comment about the gun in the home. The primary issue here is Conor’s behavior and the choice that the parents of the victim made to forgive and the recognition of Conor’s parents as to where the problems started. I agree that gun ownership is not really relevant in this story at all.
January 8, 2013 at 4:38 pm
It IS NOT Rogue Black comment alone, Daniel Bobke. It is Conor’s father’s statement, which is in the article (did you read it?). In your own comments about forgiving your mother, you took us through the process that led you there and I think people respect you for that thought process whether they might agree with you or not.
Likewise, Conor’s father believes that if the gun weren’t in the house his son wouldn’t have killed his girlfriend. It is not for you to disagree with his conclusion. Again, kindly let’s stay away from your own belief about gun ownership on the thread. It is not the place for that discussion.
January 8, 2013 at 4:54 pm
I did read the article and in fact in my comment agreed that it would have been wise for his parents not to have given Conor access to that rifle. My comment was in response to Rogue Black’s statement to a “personal aversion to guns in the home”, not so much about the father’s comments. While I certainly believe I can disagree with the father’s ultimate conclusion, it is your thread and I will respect your wishes.
January 8, 2013 at 4:57 pm
Daniel Bobke If you really want to talk about my comment that badly, please follow the link Giselle posted so your opinions are respectfully off her thread.
January 8, 2013 at 4:58 pm
Thanks, Daniel Bobke. I know people, and I am one of them, who have had a particular belief about something for a long, long while and then an event such as this comes along and shakes the belief loose from it’s moorings. Not all such Aha! moments are the result of someone dying in such a horrible way. Some Aha! moments are the result of something quite beautiful, such as your decision to get married to a “wonderful woman,” which led you to an action that changed your life. But a belief was changed and altered in you as well, which is that forgiving someone changed the course of your future.
If we are to believe Tullis’s reporting (and I do), I think just such a transition, alteration, change and transformation took place in every person (who we read about) involved in the Story of Conor and Ann.
January 8, 2013 at 5:06 pm
Christina Talbott-Clark Hate. A feeling, emotion, state of mental churning we are all given the capacity to feel, exercise and exorcise, No? I cannot count how many times I go back to the day my mentor in the theatre world said that one nasty, difficult, mean-spirited and disgruntled cast member can absolutely change the tune and tone of an ensemble cast, but that the opposite is most certainly not true – that a lovely, sweet, considerate and kind person will have no effect on a group of angry people. This was some 25 years ago now. I think about it often and my experience of it is that it is so. It is an emotion we are capable of for some evolutionary reason I am sure (I will chat about this with my stepdaughter who has a Ph.D. in Evolutionary Psychology), but I’m not at all sure it is an emotion that allows for much creativity, healing, happiness or health in our lives. And when such a feeling takes hold in me from time-to-time alarm bells go up instantly.
January 8, 2013 at 5:07 pm
P E Sharpe I always value your opinion and don’t want to see you recuse yourself at all, but will not beg you to stay. But I must ask…does being Canadian really draw such a line in the sand or is it something else?
January 8, 2013 at 5:11 pm
I don’t disagree with that Matthew Graybosch but I wonder if the “hate” we summon up to eliminate a threat (defending ourselves?) is the same “hate” someone like Conor summoned up. Is there any distinction between good hate and bad hate? I ask because in this story it is repeated that Conor wasn’t a bad kid. As Rogue Black points out their relationship had serious problems, and Conor was clearly in the grip of an emotion that controlled him, rather than the other way around. We are not serving our kids by only teaching them reading, writing and arithmetic. To my knowledge, schooling doesn’t focus on self-awareness and controlling one’s emotions. Even the parents didn’t know what was going on.
January 8, 2013 at 5:15 pm
I could not see how the death of your child could not be life-altering and transformative – regardless of the ultimate conclusions you come to. I think we all come to inflection points on certain things – points where there is a change that must take place. I think the parents here were moved (in this case by their relationship with Jesus Christ) to go beyond what in a normal human context we would consider possible.
While I think the story of forgiveness is powerful, I am glad that there was a strong punishment factor as well. 20 years in prison is no cake walk and I am sure it is hard for a young man. I think the forgiveness part is what is going to salvage his life. He is going to spend a quarter of his life behind bars, but he is doing that with the knowledge that there is redemption on the other side of that 20 years.
January 8, 2013 at 5:20 pm
I don’t think “hate” and self-defense (emotional or physical) are at all the same thing. I have been in a self-defense situation (a physical one) and hatred was never part of the equation. Survival instinct was the only thing that kicked in I didn’t hate my attacker. In fact, I felt sorry for him after it was all over.
January 8, 2013 at 5:22 pm
Learning emotional control does not belong in the school – that is a parental responsibility, in my opinion. As a parent myself, I am not about to turn that over to the school system.
January 8, 2013 at 5:50 pm
P E Sharpe Thanks for that, but I do wish I knew more “from an individual Canadian” such as you, rather than from “the press and media” about things Canadian. My husband Brian Altman did his surgical internship in the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal and came face-to-face with distinct differences of the medical care kind, but not of the kind (at least that he has told me about) about which you allude to here.
Yes, there are cultural differences in the way people from different countries see and and respond to events and life in general. I myself see this so profoundly in my favorite country…”Italy.” Of course I see it elsewhere, but my spirit is connected to that country so the differences are most interesting to me.
I hope you will never shy away from saying what’s on your mind on one of my posts. It matters and makes a difference…to me and others.
January 8, 2013 at 5:55 pm
P E Sharpe A question…and forgive my clumsiness with it, but I’m not sure how to phrase it: Do you feel in any way “controlled” by being Canadian? Is it part of your cultural DNA? I’m not suggesting that you do or that even if you are it’s a bad thing, I’m just curious to know how you think of it. For instance, when I travel to Europe I find I am often on my guard about being seen as an “American” because there are such incredibly strong belief systems about what that means, about what we therefore must all be like, what we all believe. It can be quite frustrating when traveling.
January 8, 2013 at 6:04 pm
I understand P E Sharpe’s concerns expressed for I’ve seen so much antipathy from Americans towards anything coming from a Canadian POV. For one thing since Canada provides far better for all citizens than the US in many arenas perhaps there is conflict politically and morally. She is right to point out potential for opinion to stray off topic merely because one’s nationality is an issue. More and more American jingoism and hyper nationalism coming forth all over worldwide social forums.
I prefer this particular conversation without guns or religion entirely. Am hanging in here because I appreciate thoughtful conversation on difficult moral and societal issues. Thanks for keeping this going.
January 8, 2013 at 6:13 pm
Bj Bolender I hate the way people from around the world see us – our intractable views, our righteousness, our We Are the Greatest. Yes, one of reasons I wanted certain things off this thread, mostly out of respect for this particular family’s story. But I am not one to shy away from difficult topics. I post about everything and I do mean everything…religion and guns included. But that is not what this post is about. Thanks for “keeping this going” with me.
January 9, 2013 at 12:59 am
For what it’s worth, P E Sharpe I have the same concern. When I travel I like to meet people from different cultures and talk with them. I tend to allay people’s fears about predictable American thinking by telling them how much I love to travel. Sad that we must be so defensive, which grew and grew during the Bush years. Before that I never felt that way. It has subsided a great deal within the past four years, but we have a long way to go.
I love this country and I, too, like Americans, but we are as closely associated with our government actions as any country I do suppose.
Regarding your last paragraph above, believe I do understand what you wrote. I, too, am very good at walking away. Personally, I’d like to understand what’s on the other side of that.
Thanks for hanging with me, PE…
January 9, 2013 at 1:03 am
P E Sharpe and Giselle Minoli Pre-Sarah-Palin, I got a lot of traveler mileage out of telling people I was from Alaska…
January 9, 2013 at 1:11 am
OMG Christina Talbott-Clark I’ll bet you did. That is hilarious and sad. Forgive me for saying that after Tina Fey did her brilliant imitation of Major Field Dress a Moose, I had this fantasy that absolutely every woman in Alaska could do a Sarah imitation. I mean that literally I would get off the plane and every store, restaurant, library, gas station I’d walk into…everyone would be doing a Sarah imitation a la Tina Fey.
January 9, 2013 at 1:13 am
Sadly I am living in Arizona, and I believe I could pull off a Jan Brewer imitation. For one thing, all I need is my forefinger to point while berating the President.
January 9, 2013 at 1:15 am
Giselle Minoli I’d really rather not, if you don’t mind. 😛
January 9, 2013 at 1:31 am
I don’t, Christina Talbott-Clark Sort of came over me in an uncontrollable wave there if you know what I mean!
January 9, 2013 at 1:33 am
Giselle Minoli What a relief!
::takes off red blazer, puts away lipstick::
January 9, 2013 at 1:37 am
Giselle, you are quite good at gently asking for the “more” when people may not generally discuss some very very intensely personal things. I appreciate your discretion and sensitivity. I suspect my own family issues that cause me to react strongly to your original posting are not anywhere near what others have obliquely discussed.
Each person may have their own fears and history that is a delicate subject indeed. In my situation, I’m glad that as I age I have gotten to a point that I seek more from my own life and strive to be a better person. I am very sure that my progress will not be unnoticed by my sons who carry family baggage. As a mother, one of my greatest desires is that the future generations do not have the anguish some of us “elders” have carried and fought against for so many years. Forgiveness is still something I struggle with and I see my own sons also struggle. If I can make a breakthrough that my sons can see, it will be a lasting blessing I share, even though my sons may not “see it” until years later.
January 9, 2013 at 1:38 am
Christina Talbott-Clark _never_ put away the red lipstick. I was wearing mine (and red nails too) long before Her Royal Highness ever hiked up her skirt, donned glasses, pinned up her hair and took to the podium…and then fell from grace. What a pity that fabulous color is in any way associated with Major Field Dress a Moose.
January 9, 2013 at 1:47 am
Well, it’s more the hair, really, and the glasses, but I hadn’t had time to change my hairstyle, and can’t take off my glasses. I need them!
January 9, 2013 at 3:42 am
Christina Talbott-Clark, I disagree about it being easier to hate someone you haven’t met; that’s a knee-jerk reaction to something / someone unknown and unseen.
January 9, 2013 at 4:04 am
Oksana Szulhan Yes, there are at least two types of hatred, you’re right – there’s the kind I was referring to, impersonal and irrational and usually rooted in stereotype and bigotry; and then there’s the kind that’s all too personal.
January 15, 2013 at 1:09 pm
In case anyone missed it, the attached article, New York Has Gun Deal, With Focus on Mental Ills, appeared in the Times of January 14th. It would have been impossible for Sandy Hook not to have had an impact on guns laws, even if it is State-by-State at this point. I though it relevant to add this comment for those interested, even though this particular post is not about gun laws/availability per se. Thank you for reading…
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/nyregion/new-york-legislators-hope-for-speedy-vote-on-gun-laws.html?hp
April 10, 2013 at 1:28 am
From today’s Times for what it is worth:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/10/us/politics/more-senate-republicans-oppose-filibuster-on-gun-bill.html?hp
April 10, 2013 at 3:56 am
Too bad so many of our elected officials are unwilling to stand for the record on votes. What does this say about our healthy democracy (cough cough) that the primary tactics are leaving things in “committee” to never get out for a vote OR have threats of filibuster to prevent a vote.
April 10, 2013 at 12:00 pm
Well, it says a lot BJ Bolender. Obama isn’t going to run for re-election and so he doesn’t care how angry people get/are at him. He’s been criticizes wildly for paying so much attention to gun control at the supposed expense of the economy and jobs. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. The point is that it is just that level of not caring at which a politician has to arrive in order to get anything done. Perhaps. Cough cough.