Morning, everyone

I was just going to ask you if you went to St. John’s and then I saw your profile. I’d only just found out about it yesterday!

I was like that in school, and now my daughter seems to be having the same problems.  I wish they had magnet schools close to what you describe even on the grade level.  

Yep U-Ming Lee I’m a certified (certifiable?) Johnnie.  How do you know about the school? Only a certain type of person does, even though it’s the 3rd oldest school in the States and was named after St. John’s College, Cambridge…  Still…

College should teach us to know the rules and could describe them for become easier our life. So, everyone knows where they should stop.

Hi Luis Roca yes, there is considerable debate about just that subject.  Should colleges/universities focus their attention on educating their students?  Should they even be concerned about future employment?  I lean toward the former because in my “professional” lifetime I have seen the pendulum swing from kids who think that an education in law or medicine or business administration will “save” them…to companies wanting students with a liberal arts background…to vacillating back to an education in some other discipline.  If kids go to a school based on thinking the world is static I think they are setting themselves up for trouble.  The goal should be to fall in love with learning…for a lifetime…as you seem to have done!

It’s an amazing place U-Ming Lee although I admit to have been more than a little intimated by the all the reading and how smart my fellow students and the tutors were.  The older I get, the more grateful I am I went there.  I am convinced that we don’t understand our more profound experiences until long after they have passed through the more superficial and accessible parts of our brains.  But where they really take root?  Deep in our souls.  You know…they do have a graduate program…and they have ongoing adult seminars (the Annapolis campus does)…

Denis Wallez Your experience is not my own I’m afraid.  I meet more kids who do want to be creative than don’t, but they are “warned off” to use a lawyerly phrase, by parents/advisors/mentors who teach them to be afraid of not “making it” from a very early age.  The thing they “pick up themselves” is a cultural message and a very deep one at that.  The childhood friends I had who thought my choice of school would lead to a lifetime of starvation were influenced by what their parents wanted them to do.  I still know many of these people and the regrets they have about their own lives almost always has to do with not having given themselves time to explore what mattered to them as individuals.  

If I had a dollar for every son who followed his father’s footsteps, not always by choice.  If I had a dollar for ever daughter whose mother taught her to be afraid…

Matthew Graybosch I know many, many talented people such as yourself in different artistic disciplines. You and I will never know what little bit of Heaven you would have created had your education been different…because we can’t rewrite history.  But…you trusted your own instinct and turned whatever dissatisfaction you had into a writing outlet and it great.  Great.  I think this is quite often the artistic legacy.  A rebellion.  An inner fight to stay soulfully and creatively alive.

I feel strongly about both sides of this issue Giselle Minoli. On the one hand I think that traditional brick-and-mortar colleges, as they are currently structured, are spinning out of control in terms of costs, and woefully behind in their general educational practices. On the other hand, having been to college in England, I have this Old World approach to college, which still believes in the value of sitting around the courtyard and discussing subjects with fellow students and professors. I probably learned more in those talks than in class, but I certainly would have learned less if I skipped it. It is a lot harder to develop your capacities for critical thinking, and for fair assessment of other ideas if you just do your own thing.

Leo Campos there are many sides to this issue, which is the reason I said that I am not for the demise of traditional college campuses.  But I would never have been able to afford St. John’s now, costs are so indeed out of control.  And so I feel honor bound to put forth a belief that no student who wants, who craves, who believes that education is the one they must have, should be denied it.  Traditional education, sadly, is becoming something that only students whose parents can afford it are going to be able to explore.  This makes me sad.  And worried for our cultural future.

for what it’s worth Denis Wallez I’m not “blaming” parents at all.  Cultural messages take root over a very long period of time, often in response to catastrophic events – the Great Depression, a War, 9/11 – and people are often completely unconscious of how they as individuals have been affected and how they are therefore shaping their own beliefs based on those experiences.  It isn’t about blame.  It is about recognizing that there are deep rooted underlying messages.  For instance, it would be wise of a high school counselor or college counselor to know that an individual student’s family might be pressuring them in some way to gently offer raising the question.  If that student can’t shake their “fear” I don’t blame them either.  

But I don’t agree that simply because someone can’t shake their fear it means that they don’t want to.  My experience is that most people I meet have a deep need for creativity…they just can’t let it out.  And those people pack the seats at Broadway shows, and read books, and pack the museums in New York when there is a special show to the hilt…such that frequently you can’t even get a ticket?

Who said the arts were dead?

Well, certainly, Matthew Graybosch if the focus is solely on safety, making a living and creating profit, then, No, there will most certainly be No American Culture.  

U-Ming Lee It takes energy!  And I have to admit that having small classes and the days and nights to “just study” the books was the kind of life-transforming experience that is impossible for me to describe except to say that I have great faith that I can pretty much learn anything (and have (!)).  You must have received some of that confidence somewhere or you would not be trying to read Adam Smith by yourself!  Most especially, it was the self-reliance engendered by no secondary sources:  you had to figure it out for yourself.  I remember one weekend where I sat down on a Friday night (it turns out not fifty feet from where Giselle was living–amazing coincidence we shared the same dorm but we didn’t know each other then, but met ‘again’ here) . . . I started out trying to figure out the solstices using Ptolemy’s measurements.  I would fall asleep, get up and kept at it until by Sunday afternoon, I DID IT!!!!!!  With experiences like that, many of them, I can explore new ideas and feel that, eventually, I will understand them.  (I’m also an indefatigable “fixer-upper.”  How hard can it be to . . . Do a valve job on a car; Or replace a toilet; Or sweat in pipes for a new washer; Or figure out the Moscow subway (all signs in Cyrrilic) …????  And indeed, each had their challenges (turns out you need to be quite strong to do plumbing:  everything is HEAVY), but I am cheerfully optimistic and cannot remember getting “beaten” by anything except code.  I think because I just do not want to learn it.  When I do?  I feel confident I will.  If you want to talk about “The Invisible Hand” or anything else in Adam Smith, I’m game; ping me in!  I need a refresher anyway.

Matthew Graybosch That being said, I know of too many people who work in software development who don’t grok computer science. 🙂

U-Ming Lee  Well, we should probably start a new thread and not go off on too far a tangent here, but let me say that, having taught economics, it comes as a huge shock to students that economics is a branch of philosophy!  They think they are going to learn credit default swaps or how to figure out investment strategy.  Instead they learn about “the big picture” and how to think about communism, capitalism, etc.  (By the way, even though it is written in a very futuristic style, you might enjoy reading an article by Colin Lucas-Mudd just published in the Journal I edit:  http://www.synaptiqplus.com/journal

His piece is not quite economics (though that too), but I just peeked at your more recent posting and you might find it interesting vis a vis comparisons of culture and economics.

I think a major problem with the anti-college meme is it is often coming from those who are already in a position of privilege where either not going to college or dropping out is a clear option. They are already near the top of the socio-economic ladder, and as a result have more options in general. This is the part of these anti-college stories which is often ignored, the class dynamic. For many college is often the only way to rise. It is often one of the very few ways to open the doors to wider opportunities to many people. With that being said, it is no guarantee, and one still has to be selective.  

The problem is this is not an option for everybody, and many are not afforded with the same opportunities. I will have to say, as privileged as I am, I am still somebody who had to go to college to achieve specific life goals. I come from a family of engineers and teachers, they did well, but were in no ways wealthy.  College was not my only option, but it was the best one for me. 

With that being said university itself is what you put into it, as well as take out of it. I had very clear goals with my education and career, many of which I met before I even turned thirty. I have to say I had the advantages and privileges from growing up in a community that valued education in real ways that allowed for expansion of self, and to utilize knowledge for not just one owns betterment, but the betterment of others. 

U-Ming Lee I am not shocked at the lack of knowledge in the finance community regarding economics. From my own experiences the people who know the most about economics are often those who are policy analysts and macro-economists who focus on policy. People in finance are often too self interested to use scientific methodologies to analyze outcomes and often do not even consider economic externalities. They are essentially business people more than anything else, and as much as business people think they know about economics, they are actually rather clueless outside of how to make money, and when it gets down to it economic systems are so much more than the ability to make a profit for a select few. 

Oh my I’m having to catch up with you all now…. U-Ming Lee then I assume you know Denis Wallez whose general and specific observations about economics, cultures, behavior are always interesting.  You should most definitely explore his Post page… Denis Wallez perhaps you would be kind enough to point  U-Ming Lee to some of those posts…although I might be remembering them as comments on threads???

As an extension to this discussion, would you erudite persons please check out this great share by Tom Eigelsbach  of the (salman khan) #KahnAcademy  vision?

 https://plus.google.com/u/0/104408971224491390678/posts/TSf9sUv9ySX

tag Kimberly Hayworth 

Giselle Minoli I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. No that university should be a way to reinforce class dynamics, and something to be bought, but rather something to break down those class barriers. I think using class to exclude people from higher education is highly problematic. But on the same token I think the danger of the anti-college meme is putting out the concept that skipping it is always a wise choice, when for many it offers the best path to future opportunity. Higher education remains one of the few things that can actively open doors for people who may not have the socio-economic resources that come from privilege. The danger of the anti-college meme, is to me breaking down this ability to be upwardly mobile using education as a pathway for opportunity.  In general this is why I support the very European idea of free higher education, since it would allow such a pathway for all who wish to seek it.

While I think online education as exciting, many of the people taking advantage of the free opportunities are by in large, already privileged with a higher education. With that being said, I do think it has great potential, especially if it brings in the idea of lifelong learning. 

It is my impression that many “traditional” colleges are moving towards the creativity & discussion approach in their classrooms, and I am not really sure it works as intended for the majority of students. I’ve taught several years in one of German newer “Reform” universities, created on the wave of the liberalization of the sixties and increasing the (already traditional) freedom of German universities to previously unseen level.

For many classes, for example, the students were the only one ones responsible for informing the administration whether they attended the class at all or not (without any input from the teacher) — so basically, students could have written down in their little notebook that they attended a class without ever showing up at all, and many of them did. It was my impression that this approach works very well for some students, but not for the majority, who remain so uneducated that they cannot even pass those few tests that are required to receive a degree or some sort of certificate of qualification (for future work). In Germany, it translates to lots of “eternal” students, who just attend the university forever without being able to graduate — not something an American student, with the costs here, can afford.  

I have done both (online and brick) versions of college and I found the online one more challenging and engaging (though it might be that I also took it later in life). I found that the online learning environment was challenging, stimulating, and (frankly) fun! It was much more writing centered (of course) but otherwise I have found that you could not snooze in class – there was just no way.

I want my children to go to college, but I also am quite concerned about debt levels. So what to do?

Jodi Kaplan I just wanted to say that your comment stuck with me…I think because what it points to is that you knew yourself…you knew what you needed, a type of structure and within that structure at Oberlin you still experimented.

My “complaint” is that I meet so many students who don’t know themselves, who don’t know who they are as learning beings.  They are pushed and prodded from the time they are in the womb (sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn’t) and when you ask them what they’re interested in they don’t know, what they have a passion for they don’t know, what they want to do, they don’t know.  But then, years later, they end up in companies and, late one night, over drinks, it all comes spilling out….I wanted to be an actor but my father told me I’d fail, or I wanted to be a dance, but dancing was for sissies when I was growing up, or I wanted to be a writer, or a painter or a doctor, or whatever and there is some long-repressed reason that person didn’t think it was possible.

I agree with Heidi Schabziger: I see the young funneled into jobs, and chained there by possessions. I don’t see people being taught how to take control of their lives.  We forget that young people are taught…they don’t come out of the shute closed off to the world… IMHO.

With regard to the class conflict your dean resolved — this kind of thing, I believe, is routinely done in most contemporary Western universities/colleges: you would be just free to choose which classes you take this semester, and delay any of them till the next one if the need arises. In a large university, there would typically be several groups taking the same class at different times, so you would be free to choose one which doesn’t conflict with your dance class. No dean involvement necessary, and the structure of any major is flexible enough for this.

Thanks for the tag, Jack C Crawford. My problem these days, and it’s somewhat related to the joy of pursuing a broad base of knowledge in school that you outline above, Giselle Minoli, is that here online, I have a huge challenge trying to scope and focus my quest for knowledge. This is especially true here on G+, where there are so very many bright people with lots of different backgrounds, talking about lots of very different topics – 85% of which, I’m interested in (even if I don’t always know a lot about it). 

But Lena Levin are you also pointing to some greater, I don’t know exactly how to identify it…maturity, experience, history, work ethic… something that is part of a European education?  Because it seems every doctor I have in the States is now from Europe and so there are certain fields where, Yes, something interesting is going on…

My personal failure Gideon Rosenblatt is that it is hard for me to “post” surf.  I like to sit a while.  I don’t channel surf on telly either.  And so I tend to focus in, probably too narrowly, but it could be as a result of having too little time and wanting not to feel spread too thin.  You know…like going out onto the golf course and swinging wildly but not really hitting anything…

Do you think it is a failing not conforming to the non-existant average normal person? I don’t, I think that is totally “normal”.

I recently got an education in Economic theory and found out the base fundamental is that “*human decisions are only rational and logical with no emotion involved*”, on which planet?

It’s ironic that captains of industry are usually university drop-outs, why is that?

Current education seems to be more about passing tests and grades and not actual learning, using your brains and preparing for life.

Our genetic make-up is encoded to adapt to rapid change and survive and we devise an education system that almost completely tries to negate and do the opposite of this reflex.

Instead, just pigeon hole, have only one specific special subject that you know, you can’t study music theory and chemistry and on it goes.

I’m all for “promiscuous learning”.

Great comment, dawn ahukanna .

Apologies for going AWOL dawn ahukanna.  Hers was a great comment Heidi Schabziger…and completely in line with the article…  Captains of industry drop out in order to be visionary…just because someone is a college professor doesn’t mean they are free thinkers and it doesn’t mean they are good teachers.  I think we have a false belief system not only about what it means to be educated – the Renaissance Man is made fun of because he/she is accused of being a dilettante – but we revere a kind of “accepted” knowledge.  It was very hard for some captains of industry that the young Zuckerberg wears T-shirts and jeans…not the “costume” of a CEO.

I like that dawn ahukanna – Promiscuous Learning.  But how do we eradicate fear and teach kids to fly with faith???

I’m off on an interstate drive today…and will get back to you later Meg Tufano.  Greetings, everyone…

Inspired by this discussion, I just signed up for a Coursera class. 🙂

Hello all.  “Blue” got me safely over the mountains dawn ahukanna…she always does.  There was a ferocious, but beautiful fog all the way to Charleston today.  A sort of warmish/coldish thing going on.  It’s rather odd to look across the pastures and see cow heads munching on bluegrass between hooves, but the cow’s body all blocked out by fog!

But I digress!  Meg Tufano honestly, I think everyone is distracted!  I really do. Back in the day, when studying and reading got really hard, I’d go swimming or dancing or for a walk or something but I didn’t turn on a computer and dive into the internet.  There are only so many “words” “thoughts” “ideas” “images” one can absorb in a day before it all becomes a blue.  For me, back in the day, there was more of a distinction between things and when I finished a dance class, for instance, I looked forward to reading.  Now everything is online and it’s sort of a blur.  

I don’t know about the rest of you, but my eyes hurt.  I need a museum, a documentary film, a play…to stimulate my senses and turn the gears in a different direction.  When you ask if we are making the joy of learning no longer available to our young people, I would say that everything is a little bit too accessible…and there is little drive to dig deeper and retain anything.

Yesterday my husband was lamenting the reality that he doesn’t know his daughter’s cell phone number…he just pushes a speed dial #.  

I believe in balance.  I just am not sure what it is anymore.

I write all this…and I LOVE my computer!

Giselle, I’ve been thinking about these issues, on and off, the whole day. All in all, I think the joy of learning is more available than ever (certainly not less); it’s just that nobody can give it. It can only be taken.

Not learning as such, the joy of learning. Which certainly includes overcoming difficulties, a certain amount of self-discipline and a bunch of other old-fashioned things. It’s not supposed to be “easy”. These difficulties aren’t only unavoidable, there is no joy without them. An attempt to remove them (by those who are supposed to be teachers) leads to disaster.

Thank you for sharing and articulating this so beautifully, Giselle Minoli. I agree whole-heartedly with all the points you make. Learning should be based on cultivating your own creativity and developing your critical thinking as well as discovering your passions and what brings you joy. Unfortunately, what most of us don’t do for a living what we love doing. 

We’re programmed and expected to fit the mold and go through the motions as if one way of learning fits all. And that starts with our very restrictive and one-dimensional and constrictive educational system, which gets really bad in middle school and gets worse as you escalate to high school, then college, generally speaking.

And while there are more opportunities for self-learning and fostering one’s creative talents nowadays, it’s also true that there is still a great deal of stigmatism for those who don’t graduate from the typical university institutions with a typical degree.

Oops, no Plato I’m afraid. It’s Introduction to Genetics and Evolution. I recently decided to read Origin of the Species, so it works together.

Jack C Crawford thank you for that.  Core beliefs and dreams.  Are those words that parents even speak to their children any more?  The term “values” is tossed out so light-heartedly these days, but what it tends to me is something wildly and decidedly political – the shared values of Democrats or Republicans for instance.  A gentleman journalist I read often recently said that the price he would have to pay to give up who he really is as a person is far too great to pay.

We don’t think of life that way, do we?  We think of being in financial debt.  But we don’t think of being in debt to our souls, we don’t think of having put our core beliefs and dreams in jail.

Alan Watts is right.  Our greatest challenge but perhaps the most necessary to undertake.

I will check out your slideshare…

Here is a short and rather compelling Alan Watts Video: “What would you like to do if money were no object?”

http://youtu.be/siu6JYqOZ0g